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          Segment 5: Speeches (368 lines)
               Michael Cassutt, Nelson S. Bond
               and Chris Crawford


<Vonda> George RR is introducing Mike Cassutt & all the shows he's
     written for... but had to mention that all of them are, er,
     dead.
<Vonda> The usual progression. Dinner, speeches, awards.
<Moderator> Ahh, ok.
<Djonn> "Speeches", presumably meaning a Toastmaster speech plus a
     keynote speaker, right?
<Moderator> I think so, Djonn
<Vonda> yes, exactly.
<LaurieM> Are we missing any good gossip?
<yashmak> i think we are missing good cheesecake
<sfreader> Mod- What about a straw poll of the folks here, for the
     awards?
<Djonn> Who's the keynote speaker this year?  Lately we've had
     scientists--I remember K. Eric Drexler at the Eugene Nebs.
<Marilee> I'm having Almond Roca as a sop.
<Vonda> If you like pumpkin. The folks who do like pumpkin say
     it's yummy. Someone took mine quite happily.
<Vanguard-> Hello--John Hedtke here again.
<Moderator> Chris Crawford is keynote speaker
* yashmak shakes vonda silly
<Vonda> Chris Crawford, "the dean of computer game design."
<Vonda> He started out as an astrophysicist.
<Kent> <-- knew Chris back in the Atari days
<pff3> heh
<LaurieM> Way cool
<Vanguard-> What's happening at the moment?  (I'm assuming that
     it's a-d speeches, yesno?)
<Djonn> Vanguard: yes.
<Vanguard-> Theng kew, Djonn.
<Djonn> Or so Vonda's been typing, as quietly as possible in the
     midst of the crowd.
<Vanguard-> :)
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<Vonda> Yes, the toastmaster speech. It really wouldn't be polite
     to transcribe it without permission, even if I could type
     that fast, which I can't, sorry to say.
<LaurieM> How about just general notes, as if you were a reporter
     orsomething...
<Ziggy> hi Joan
<Vonda> He mentioned that Roger Zelazny lived in Santa Fe. I had
     the privilege of spending some time with him in New Zealand
     not long before he died.
<Vanguard-> There are other people here, so I'm going to turn it
     over to them.  
* Vanguard- gets up out of the chair and relinquishes it with a
     low and sweeping bow to the next contestant.
<Vonda> He was a terifically wonderful man. His son Trent is here
     -- a very nice, smart guy.
<Vonda> Hi all from Seattle.
<Vanguard-> Anita is now typing, with marcia looking over her
     shoulder ;-)
<pff3> welcome Anita!
<Vonda> Michael mentions that Jack Williamson will be at the 2028
     Nebs celebrating his 100th anniversary as an sf writer.
<Vonda> Hi Marcia! Hi Anita!
<Ziggy> hi Anita and Marcia
<LaurieM> Howl, what a great comment!
<Vonda> The gummy fish have been a great hit & I'm taking the rest
     of them to the Weird Candy party later on this evening.
<Lorrie> So you want to boogie down, eh?
<Moderator> :-)
<Vonda> Michael is very funny. He's only mentioned Harlan twice
     (he bragged).
<Kent> Say hi to Nina and Leslie for me, okay?
<yashmak> gummy fish??
<Vonda> Like gummy worms only with fins. I throw them to the
     audience when I read the "Fissshhh!" scene from Moon & Sun.
* yashmak places a gummy fish in her ear
<Vanguard-> Marcia is giggling
<Djonn> I thought you used gummi worms to *catch* gummi fish.
<yashmak> ha, djonn
<Vonda> Several folks here at the Nebs were at Marcia's panel at
     Norwescon and were singing her praises (which I echo!).
<Vanguard-> Marcia blushes
<Vanguard-> "aw, gee..."
<Vonda> No false modesty, now.
<MMF> yashmak, you're gonna have a hell of a time cleaning that
     out later on.
<Vonda> Michael mentions that the golden age of an sf writer's
     career is... 13 years.
<bullet> MMF: At least its not pumpkin cheesecake!
<yashmak> yes, but now i undestand that my dogs are card carrying
     pizzas from the planet extra cheese
<MMF> Thank Zoroaster for small mercies.
<Vonda> Introducing Nelson Bond, Author Emeritus.
<Vonda> He published 300 stories, not only in the pulps but in the
     major slicks.
<Vonda> He also wrote lots of radio dramas. A novel, The Exiles of
     Time.
<yashmak> he wrote for the CBS radio mystery thearter, didn't he
<Vonda> I believe so.
<yashmak> as did Jack Dann
<sfreader> Vonda, Can you say more about the career age being 13?
<Robt> hehehe
<Vonda> Michael did an average of people's writing life
     ("something longer than the life of a running back but less
     than a postal worker."
<Moderator> heheh
<yashmak> ha
<Vonda> But I think he was averating in Nelson Bond, Jack
     Williamson, and Poul Anderson.
<Vonda> (averaging)
<Vonda> It's a tough world out there in publishing these days.
<Vonda> (Also the joke he was referring to was, "The golden age of
     sf is 12."
<Vonda> Mr. Bond reminisces about the old days -- he told a young
     fan who had just sold his first story that the important
     thing was to send out another & sell it too. Years later he
     got a book with the inscription: "Thank you for the best
     advice I ever got. Isaac Asimov."
<Vonda> He met Forry Ackerman and Ray Bradbury when they were
     kids.
* Ryuuen wows.
<Vonda> When he began, Saturday Evening Post and Colliers & many
     other slick magazines published fiction.
<Vonda> You had lots and lots and lots of places to learn your
     craft.
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<Vonda> Mr Bond believes we'll go to Venus, Mars, the moons of
     Jupiter, outer space -- ...
<pff3> rejade
<JeffryD> Re, all.
<pff3> yo jack
<Vonda> because SF gave folks the idea it was possible.
<Ziggy> hi Jack, re Jade
<Vonda> (Had to pause to join the standing ovation.)
<Adrienne> Yo
<Kent> Applauding out here too, Vonda.
<LaurieM> <clap-clap-clap!>
<Vonda> Thanks. Enjoying myself.
<LaurieM> Thanks, Vonda, that was interesting
<Ferragus> thanks!
<Moderator> Thanks, Vonda. :-)
<Vonda> Next up, Chris Crawford. He was "Mr Energy" touring
     schools for a while.
<Vonda> His speech is about "The Muse of Interactivity."
<Vonda> We're having the traditional microphone feedback dance
     right now.
*** Lois has joined #nebula
<Moderator> heheh
<Vonda> "Never trust machines!" he says.
<Moderator> Hi Lois, welcome
<Lois> Hi, all, and thanks.  glad i showed up.
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<Moderator> Speechifying has just started, awards next.
<yashmak> vonda, i have to run now but i will try and come back
     later, break a leg
<yashmak> buzz everyone
<Vonda> Take care, good to see you
<Vonda> Mr. Crawford is asking for our help in saving his muse.
<Vonda> Though he admits it's pretty bold of him to be cooking up
     a new muse after all this time.
<sfreader> Vonda, you are doing a GREAT job!
<Jack> ?? I personally have only one major question; How come
     Kathleen Goonan didn't even get a mention in the Nebula
     contendors?
<Vonda> I don't know. Is she perhaps still eligible for next year?
     (Neb & hugo & calendar years are different.)
<Jack> Mississippi Blues would be I think.
<Moderator> Hard to say, she may have just missed on the prelims
     as well.
<Jack> But Queen City Jazz or Bones of Time would be this round
     IIRC.
<Vonda> That would give her more eligibility. What about the
     Hugos?
<Bruce_H_R> Bones of Time made the prelim ballot last year, I
     think.
<Vonda> Mr. Crawford is talking about art, creativity, and
     psychology.
<Vonda> "The human mind is an active agent, not a passive
     receptacle."
<Robt> I thought Queen City Jazz did
<Vonda> Can't just push a button and fill the brain up with
     knowedge...
<Vonda> Brains are messy biological modules slapped together over
     evolutionary times.
<Vonda> Natural selection, he suggests, selects not so much what a
     creature is as what it does. 
<Vonda> The interaction with the environment is the important
     thing.
<Djonn> If my publication date source is correct, MISSISSIPPI
     BLUES still has several months of eligibility for Nebulas.
     Can't speak to the others.
<Vonda> The quality of that interaction determines the success of
     the creature.
<Robt> the other one was eligible last year and did not win
<Vonda> Mr. Crawford: Human mind is based on its interaction with
     the environment.
<Vonda> ...But entertainment can be seen as a passive process.
<Vonda> Even if you consider entertainment (reading i.e.) action
     -- it isn't INTERACTION.
* Jack is of the belief that Queen City Jazz and Mississippi Blues
     are breakthrough novels of a kind. No one particular thing
     that is new there, but the way it all fits together...
<Vonda> ... We can't interact with current forms of art...
<Robt> Jack, I have an idea, why not joind #neb_lounge to discuss
     this further
<Vonda> ... fiction works against the natural [interactive]
     workings of the brain...
<Vonda> ... He admits that his lecturing us instead of interacting
     with each of us is a bit contradictory.
<Lois> i wonder he says that fiction works against the natural
     workings of the brain.  
<JeffryD> He needs to define "interaction" much more clearly,
     imho.
<Moderator> Yes, we have a whole second room for the debates,
     which I'm sure will fill up when everybody's favorite comes
     in second. :-)
<Vonda> [just summarizing, probably not too well I'm afraid. I
     would look up the speech when it's published, it's quite
     interesting.]
<JeffryD> You're doing GREAT, Vonda!
<Vonda> ... he points out that with a lecture he can reach a lot
     more folks in a lot less time...
<Moderator> True, hard to pull highlights from an involved speech,
     but you're doing great anyway. :-)
<Robt> It sounds quite interesting... at least worth thinking
     about anyway
<Vonda> ... but is trading off, losing something, losing the
     interaction.
<Lois> this is great, vonda.  stimulating to get these extracts.
<Vonda> "Forced to sacrifice effectiveness for efficiency."
<Vanguard-> I'm more inspired to write when I'm in an interactive
     forum such as posting to the newsgroups.  Writing with
     delayed feedback from the other writers/readers is less
     engaging. -- Michael Hoffman
<Djonn> Except that *we're* interacting with the speech, in a
     sense, in the dialogue here.
<Lois> i wonder if it's possible to post the speech somewhere on
     sffnet (later, of course).
<Djonn> Lois: will probably go into the SFWA BULLETIN.
<Vonda> No, it's his speech. I would keep an eye out for where
     it's published.
<Moderator> Maybe the SFWA site will have it posted afterwards.
<Vonda> I'll find out and let you know, or remind me.
<Moderator> That would be the first place to look
<Moderator> OK, I'll ask Melisa.
<Robt> Melisa gets a lot of stuff from the Bulletin; it is a
     possibility.
<Vonda> Mr. Crawford points out that computers might allow more
     interactivity between artist and people who see the art.
<Sean> Hmm. Wonder if he's aware of the theory that the process of
     learning and interacting are based on internal
     narrative-building.
<Moderator> True enough here. :-)
<Kent> <nodding in Sean's direction>
<Vonda> Points he wants to discuss:
<Christoph> There's an exhibit at the Philadelphia museum that
     exploits that very idea right now.
<Robt> Sean you dont have to agree with what he's saying to find
     it interesting.
<Sean> It's a hot topic in educational theory.
<Vonda> 1. Loss of control. People can change your stuff.
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<Moderator> Hi Rosemary, glad you could join us. :-)
<Rosemary> Hi!  Just checking in...
<Moderator> Speeches now, awards in a bit.
<Robt> Yes, it goes back to language acquisitin even.
<Sean> *nod Robt* Wasn't disagreeing, just mentioning a related
     theory. I don't know enough to hold a firm opinion :)
<Robt> acquisition
<Sean> All of my educational theory has come from constructivist
     theorists, so I'm aware I've gotten only one side of the
     field.
<Vonda> I believe some folks in the audience do hold some firm
     opinions on the subject.
<Kent> <g>
<JeffryD> This audience, too.  :)
<pff3> heh
<Robt> Although his writing is impossible to understand, I think
     Chomsky is pretty much considered consensus
<Robt> heheh JD
<JeffryD> Just listening now, but will be interested in discussing
     these ideas in the newsgroups later.  Very interested.
<Vonda> Mr. Crawford points out that writers of fiction are
     omnipotent.
<Robt> Wow! 
<Christoph> Playing to the room, isn't he?
<Robt> heheh
<Moderator> Yes, just what I was thinking, this is a great
     starting point for debate.
<Vonda> ... Interactivity allows a writer to make the rules of the
     dramatic universe... 
<Vonda> without having to worry about the details. "You can
     concentrate on the art."
<Vonda> ...But there's a problem.
<Vonda> ... your control is at a higher level of abstraction. ...
<Robt> Is this the guy who wrote Erasmatron?
<Vonda> ... but people work better with the concrete.
<JeffryD> ?? What's the crowd reaction there?
<Vonda> Yes
<Vonda> Listening. Some quiet debate.
<Vonda> ... So artists must learn to use math. ...
<Vonda> ... At the level of algebra. ...
<Robt> phew, thats a relief
<Kent> (see http://www.erasmatazz.com for more)
<Vonda> ... (That was the second point.)
<Vonda> Third point he wishes to discuss about the Muse of
     Interactivity: ...
<Vonda> The Two Cultures problem.  (ref: C.P. Snow.)
<Vonda> ... dividing into (approx) art and science. 
<Sean> Hmm. Sounds like he's advocating authors become game
     designers. Suppose that's not entirely unexpected.
<Vonda> ... He points out for example that few artists can explain
     the 2nd law of thermodynamics, while few engineers can recite
     a poem by heart.
<Djonn> <!>
<Robt> Djonn its just a speech
<Vonda> [being very roughly conveyed by YHOS]
<Robt> good point about being second hand
<Moderator> oooh, we'll have a good ng debate on this one. :-)
<Djonn> Oh, I understand.  And I will exercise great restraint....
<Vonda> ... folks call each other "propellorhead" and
     "artsy-fartsy"... 
<Vonda> Neither should be acceptable in the mind of a civilized
     human being...
<Kent> Phbllt.  Most of the SF writers I know can recite
     Shakespeare and the Second Law.
<Vonda> But he isn't talking about sf writers.
<Sean> SF is a bit of an exception, involving as it does both
     halves.
<Christoph> Hey! Maybe that's why this guy was invited to speak
     there!
<Vonda> ... He thinks the reluctance of some writers to embrace
     computer technology is a similar reaction to not wanting to
     "embrace the muse of interactivity." ...
<Djonn> <holding tongue>
<Robt> I would suspect most writers period can tell you the 2nd
     law and some Shakespeare
<Robt> I think more likely its lack of income
<Lois> <ditto, Djonn> ... Robt: yes.
<Terry> <ditto here too>
<Robt> Lois: good idea, I follow yours and Djonn's lead.
<Vonda> ... He notes that in computer games, no characters (as
     writers perceive them) exist.
<Vanguard-> Hey Vonda, just wanted to let you know that I'm here
     (it's me, Janna), along with Josepha Sherman. We're all
     waiting with baited breath. Anything exciting happening, or
     is it the usual corporate-dinner-type blather?
<bullet> Why do we always refer to technology when discussing
     interactivity?
<Vonda> ... He asks us, please, to take the muse of interactivity
     to our hearts, as we would any muse, though "no great work of
     art has been created under her aegis." ...
<Vonda> But she's just a child. Give her a place. Give her a home.
<Vonda> [end]
<Djonn> <mfrpfl>
* Ryuuen wonders if it'd be impolite to laugh. :)
<Vanguard-> Thinking the same thing ourselves....
<Vonda> It was quite moving from this end; sorry I didn't really
     get the feeling across.
<Vanguard-> <Bowing our heads in apology...>
<Robt> Vonda, I got that he was passionate
<Vonda> I don't necessarily agree with everything he said, but it
     was a very interesting speech. ...
<Djonn> Oh, I think you got some of Mr. Crawford's feeling across.
<Ferragus> that's Ok Vonda, thanks so much for what you could do
<bullet> You did terrific Vonda!
<Kent> According to SFWeekly coverage, some folks were walking
     out.
<Vonda> I encourage folks to keep an eye out for it. Will try to
     find out where it will be published.
<Robt> Kent: cool!
<Lois> he made some interesting points, certainly a lot of items
     to debate.  will be fascinating to read the full text.
<Vonda> It's been a LONG evening. The rest rooms are a ways away.
<Kent> I don't think so ... seems kinda impolite, actually.