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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98


1 IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

2 FOR THE COUNTY OF ALAMEDA

3 ---o0o---

4 KEN SMITH, )

)

5 Plaintiff, )

)

6 vs. ) No. 778220-2

)

7 MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY, ELISABETH )

WATERS, and DOES 1 through 10, )

8 )

Defendants. )

9 __________________________________)

10

11

12

13

14 DEPOSITION OF

15 MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY

16 _________________________________

17 Monday, August 10, 1998

18

19

20 SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES

1254 Leavenworth Street

21 San Francisco, California 94109

(415) 771-1988

22

23

24 REPORTED BY: JANINE P. BRANCO, CSR No. 10372

25

SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988

1

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 I N D E X

2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE

3 MR. DOLAN 4

4 ---o0o---

5 E X H I B I T S

6 PLAINTIFFS' PAGE

7 1 2-page 7-29-98 "NOTICE OF TAKING 4

DEPOSITION OF DEFENDANT MARION

8 ZIMMER BRADLEY."

9 2 2-page undated document entitled 24

"The Loyal Opposition."

10

3 19-page 7-22-89 "BERKELEY POLICE 57

11 DEPARTMENT UNIVERSAL REPORT FORM."

12 ---o0o---

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SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988

2

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 BE IT REMEMBERED THAT, pursuant to Notice of

2 Taking Deposition and on Monday, August 10, 1998,

3 commencing at the hour of 11:01 a.m. thereof, at 2121

4 Russell Street, Berkeley, California, before me,

5 JANINE P. BRANCO, a Certified Shorthand Reporter of the

6 State of California, personally appeared

7 MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY

8 a Defendant herein, called as a witness by the

9 Plaintiffs, having been by me first duly sworn, was

10 examined and testified hereinafter as set forth.

11 ---o0o---

12 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL

13 For the Plaintiffs Ken Smith and Mary Mason

THE LAW OFFICES OF CHRISTOPHER B. DOLAN

14 655 Montgomery Street, 16th Floor

San Francisco, CA 94111

15 By: CHRISTOPHER C. DOLAN and SCOTT BONAGOFSKY,

Attorneys at Law

16

For the Defendant Marion Zimmer Bradley

17 CAUDLE, WELCH, UMIPEG & BOVEE

1390 Willow Pass Road, Suite 200

18 Concord, CA 94520

By: M. HENRY WALKER, Attorney at Law

19

For the Defendant Elisabeth Waters

20 HAIMS, JOHNSON, MacGOWAN & McINERNEY

490 Grand Avenue

21 Oakland, CA 94610

By: LAWRENCE A. BAKER, Attorney at Law

22

ALSO PRESENT:

23

MARY MASON

24 BELLE ROMERO

25 ---o0o---

SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988

3

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. DOLAN: This will be the first exhibit.

3 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1 was marked for

4 identification.)

5 EXAMINATION BY MR. DOLAN

6 Q. Please state your full name for the record.

7 A. Marion Zimmer Bradley.

8 Q. Ms. Bradley, my name is Christopher Dolan.

9 I'm an attorney who represents Kenneth Smith in this

10 case, and Mary Mason currently in this case.

11 I am here today to take your deposition. You

12 understand that?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. I am going to go through some of the rules of

15 a deposition.

16 Have you ever had your deposition taken

17 before?

18 A. My lawyer went over it with me the other day.

19 Q. Okay. Have you ever had your deposition

20 taken before?

21 A. No.

22 Q. I'm going to go over those rules just because

23 I need to make sure that we're all clear on them.

24 But before I do so, do you know what day it

25 is today?

SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988

4

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 A. I believe it is Monday.

2 Q. Okay. Do you know what month it is?

3 A. I think it is -- it's either July or August.

4 I do tend to lose track since the kids are out of

5 school.

6 Q. I understand.

7 Do you know where we are today, what the

8 address of this place is?

9 A. I don't think I know the street address, but

10 it's between Telegraph and Shattuck on Russell.

11 Q. And what are your children's names?

12 A. My oldest son's name is David Bradley. My

13 second son is named Patrick Russell Breen. And my

14 third, youngest daughter's name is Laura Evelyn Dorothy

15 Breen.

16 Q. And what was your maiden name?

17 A. Marion Eleanor Zimmer.

18 Q. The rules of the deposition are as follows:

19 The first rule of a deposition is that everything we do

20 here is orally, so therefore the court reporter must

21 have oral statements made by all the people in

22 attendance today.

23 A. In other words, I say yes instead of nodding.

24 Q. Please.

25 A. Thank you.

SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988

5

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 Q. Instead of using movements or hand gestures

2 or anything we may do in normal conversation, we need

3 full and complete English words. "Uh-huh" and "huh-uh"

4 don't translate well.

5 A. I say "yes" or "no" or "maybe," "I don't

6 know."

7 Q. Thank you.

8 The other rule of a deposition is we need to

9 let one person finish talking before the other one

10 begins because the court reporter can only take the

11 writing of one person at a time. So if you will wait

12 until I finish speaking before you begin speaking, I

13 will afford you the same courtesy.

14 A. I've been a school teacher. I know that. I

15 always try to get the kids to finish talking before --

16 talking before the next one starts.

17 Q. Very good.

18 The other thing is I don't want you to guess

19 or speculate as to anything, but I am entitled to your

20 very best recollection.

21 A. If I don't know the answer, I will just say

22 "I don't remember."

23 Q. You have to let me finish speaking before you

24 begin speaking. That's the rule we just went over that

25 school teachers follow. Okay?

SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 A. Yes; I'll try.

2 Q. So I don't want you to guess or speculate,

3 but I am entitled to an estimate or an approximation.

4 So if you can't remember something exactly, I am

5 entitled to your best estimate, however small it may be,

6 your recollection, so long as it's not a guess.

7 The difference between the two can be

8 summarized as follows: We're sitting at a table. I may

9 ask you the length of this table, and although you have

10 not measured it, you might be able to estimate it.

11 A. I would say it's about eight feet.

12 Q. If I were to ask you the length of the

13 conference room table in my office, that would be a

14 guess because you have not been there.

15 A. I would just say I don't know.

16 Q. Very good.

17 A. Thank you very much.

18 Q. If you do not understand a question that I

19 ask of you, I'll ask that you please have me rephrase it

20 because I'm not here to trick you today. I want to make

21 sure that you completely understand before you answer.

22 All right?

23 A. Thank you. Yes, I understand.

24 Q. Are you under the influence of any

25 medications today?

SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 A. Well, I have taken insulin, which I am

2 steadily on for diabetes; and I am steadily under the

3 influence of the antidepressant Amipromene, which I take

4 one every night.

5 Q. Okay. And are you under the influence of any

6 other medication within the last 24 hours?

7 A. None whatsoever.

8 Q. Are either --

9 A. Except that I'm wearing a patch of....

10 Q. Nitroglycerin?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do any of the medications that you have just

13 described for me impair your ability to recall events?

14 A. I don't believe so.

15 Q. At the end of your deposition, when it

16 concludes, you will have the opportunity to review and

17 read this deposition and make any changes that you feel

18 are appropriate or necessary.

19 A. Thank you.

20 Q. I must caution you, however, that if you make

21 substantive changes to your deposition, I have the right

22 to comment to the jury that you have changed or altered

23 your testimony. So we'd like to get your best testimony

24 today.

25 A. I'll try.

SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988

8

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 Q. In that regard, if you think, geez, I need to

2 change something as we sit here, please let us know so

3 we can make those changes now. Okay?

4 A. In other words, have my second thoughts not a

5 month or a week from now.

6 Q. You're entitled to have them whenever you

7 have them. I'm just letting you know there will be

8 repercussions.

9 A. It's most convenient to have them right now.

10 Q. Please.

11 A. All right. I'll do my best.

12 Q. You're entitled to take a break anytime you

13 need to. We have a very limited time because we're

14 doing this in limited amounts of time because of your

15 medical condition, so I would request if you need a

16 break, let us know. We're not here to inconvenience you

17 or harm you in any way. Okay?

18 A. Thank you.

19 Q. However, I must caution you that if there is

20 a question pending, meaning you've got a question asked

21 and not answered, and you request a break before

22 answering it, I may place on the record that you are

23 breaking on a pending question, and I may draw an

24 inference at the time of trial that you have been

25 coached on your answer by your lawyer during that break.

SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 You are entitled to still do so, I'm just merely

2 advising you beforehand there may be re --

3 A. In other words, it's okay to do it, but you

4 have to know about it.

5 Q. That's fine. Or if you do ask for a break

6 after I've asked a question and you have not given an

7 answer, I may ask a jury to draw an inference that you

8 were coached during the break. Okay?

9 A. Uh-huh.

10 Q. Can you identify the woman to my right

11 (indicating)?

12 A. No. I don't know her at all.

13 Q. Have you ever seen her before?

14 A. Not to my knowledge or belief.

15 Q. Do you have any idea or recollection who she

16 is?

17 A. No; I'm afraid not.

18 MR. DOLAN: Let the record reflect I pointed

19 to Mary Mason.

20 Q. Are you currently residing with Elisabeth

21 Waters at this residence?

22 A. Yes, I am.

23 No, not at this one. At the one over an Rose

24 or whatever that street it is. Ashby and Grove. No

25 Prince and Fulton.

SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 Q. Do you have a residence on Prince Street?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you know the address of that residence?

4 A. 2221.

5 Q. How long have you been a resident in the home

6 where we are now?

7 A. Not at all. I have just bought the place,

8 and I believe we are not going to be able to keep it.

9 Q. When did you purchase this place?

10 A. Within the last month.

11 Q. So you're not living here at all?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Where are you living?

14 A. Over in the house at Ashby -- Prince and

15 Fulton.

16 Q. Prince and Fulton?

17 A. Yes; where I lived for the last 30 years.

18 Q. Do you know why we're having your deposition

19 here today?

20 A. I believe it is because it was more

21 convenient to come over here, but I'm not really

22 certain.

23 Q. If at any time during this deposition you

24 feel you're becoming unable to answer questions clearly

25 because of anything medical or psychological, we have to

SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988

11

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 ask that you let us know that so that we can try to make

2 sure we're getting testimony that could be credible in

3 court.

4 A. Will do so.

5 Q. Do you understand that although we're in your

6 living room of this vacant house today that this

7 particular deposition has the same force and effect as

8 if it were being taken in front of a judge and jury?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. And you have sworn to tell the truth under

11 penalty of perjury?

12 A. Yes, I have.

13 Q. I'm going to be asking you some very

14 uncomfortable questions today, and I apologize for doing

15 that in advance. This is an uncomfortable case.

16 A. Well, this is the law.

17 Q. Okay. I just want you to know that there is

18 nothing personal in my questions to you today. And if

19 they cause you discomfort, I apologize, but it is my job

20 on behalf of my client to do the hard job of asking

21 these questions.

22 A. Thank you.

23 Q. When did you first become aware that your

24 husband had been sexually involved with boys under the

25 age of 18 years old?

SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 A. I have --

2 MR. WALKER: Objection. That lacks

3 foundation.

4 MR. DOLAN: Q. You may answer.

5 A. I was about to say that I had read some

6 things that he had written on the subject, but

7 unfortunately, I believed from the very beginning that

8 it was a sort of an intellectual position, a sort of a

9 feeling that it was something that was talked about in

10 Greek literature and was sort of a testing position.

11 Q. Did you know that he had a relationship with

12[Victim X]?

13 A. I became aware of it, yes.

14 Q. When did you become aware of it?

15 A. About that time.

16 Q. What time?

17 A. Shortly after we were married. At that time

18 I treated [Victim X] like one of my own children. He and my

19 son David used to go swimming together and such.

20 Q. And to your knowledge, how old was [Victim X] when

21 your husband was having a sexual relationship with him?

22 A. I think he was --

23 MR. WALKER: Objection. That lacks

24 foundation. She never testified she was aware they had

25 a sexual relationship.

SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 MR. DOLAN: Q. You may answer.

2 A. I think he was about 14 or possibly 15. I'm

3 not certain.

4 Q. Were you aware that your husband had a sexual

5 relationship with [Victim X] when he was below the age

6 of 18?

7 A. Yes, I was.

8 Q. Did you know that about the time you were

9 married to your husband?

10 A. Shortly afterward. It was quite shocking to

11 me.

12 Q. How did you find that out?

13 A. I believe he mentioned it.

14 Q. Who mentioned it?

15 A. Walter.

16 Q. And what did he tell you?

17 A. Well, he told me that he and [Victim X] were

18 sleeping together. And I said that I had believed that

19 was an intellectual position. He told me it was not. I

20 was very upset.

21 Q. So back in the 1960s you knew that it was not

22 just an intellectual position for Walter; correct?

23 A. I knew that intellectually. I didn't have

24 any physical awareness of it.

25 Q. Didn't Walter tell you that he was sleeping

SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 with [Victim X]?

2 A. He did. But you know how it is when you're

3 told something, and everything people say needs people

4 to say it and one to hear it. At that time I don't

5 think I was emotionally or intellectually capable of

6 hearing it.

7 Q. But you do recall hearing it?

8 A. Yes, I do recall hearing it.

9 Q. What else did Walter tell you on the subject

10 of his relationship with [Victim X]?

11 A. I know that he gave him a bicycle.

12 Q. When did he give him the bicycle?

13 A. It was before I had come to live with him.

14 Q. Do you know where [Victim X] lives now?

15 A. I have not seen or heard of [Victim X] since he was

16 -- since about three years after we were married. I

17 presume he is still alive somewhere, but, that is, I

18 have not heard anything to the contrary.

19 Q. Did Walter ever discuss with you at length

20 the various sexual activities that he would undertake

21 with [Victim X]?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did Walter ever tell you that he thought it

24 was a mutually desired situation between [Victim X] and

25 himself?

SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 A. I had read that in his book.

2 Q. Which book?

3 A. He wrote a book called "Greek Love" under the

4 name of John Eglington.

5 Q. And you reviewed some of the manuscripts of

6 that book before it was published?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. And did you contribute by doing proofreading?

9 A. I did proofreading, yes.

10 Q. Did you do some editorial work on that book?

11 A. I attempted to, but I found out afterward

12 that everything I had done had been thrown out by the

13 publisher, Robert Bashno (phonetic).

14 Q. But you did attempt to make some editorial

15 changes to that book as it was being written?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. And at that time you were also aware that he

18 had a sexual relationship with [Victim X]?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you ever talk to [Victim X]'s mother about --

21 A. No.

22 Q. You have to let me finish.

23 A. Sorry.

24 Q. Did you ever talk to [Victim X]'s mother about the

25 sexual relationship between Walter and [Victim X]?

SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you ever talk to the police about a

3 sexual relationship between Walter and [Victim X]?

4 A. I don't remember. I know that I talked to a

5 lawyer Walter had at the time.

6 Q. And who was that lawyer?

7 A. I don't remember her name. She was a lady.

8 Q. And what did you and the lawyer talk about?

9 A. About his book.

10 Q. Can you tell me the context of your

11 conversation, please?

12 A. Largely that I had heard that [mother of Victim X] had said

13 that she had nothing to complain about in [Victim X]'s

14 relationship with Walter. And I thought that, well,

15 because [Victim X] would come -- he had been accused of

16 stealing milk out of refrigerators, and he would come to

17 dinner with us, and he obviously hadn't eaten for a long

18 time.

19 Q. How did you hear that [mother of Victim X] had no

20 complaints about the sexual relationship between your

21 husband and her minor child?

22 A. She told me.

23 Q. So you did speak with her about this?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And when did you speak with her about this?

SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988

17

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 A. It was, as I say, shortly after we were

2 married.

3 Q. And what was the nature of the conversation

4 with [mother of Victim X] regarding your husband's sexual

5 interactions with her son?

6 A. I don't remember that we spent any time on

7 it. Mostly she was telling me that I was not a good

8 writer, that I was a commercial hack, and that she was a

9 great and artistic poet. I told her that at least I

10 could feed my kids on what I did, and that if she had

11 kids to feed, she'd probably do it too or -- that is,

12 write commercially.

13 Q. What about the subject matter between the sex

14 of your husband and her son did you discuss that led you

15 to believe that she had no complaint about this sexual

16 relationship?

17 A. I think what she said almost exactly was "I

18 find nothing to complain about," but I can't remember

19 exactly. That was, I think, about 25 or 30 years ago.

20 Q. Was this sex occurring ever in your home?

21 A. Not that I --

22 No, not to my knowledge.

23 Q. Was [Victim X] ever spending the night at your

24 home?

25 A. Yes; but he slept with my older son.

SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 Q. Did you ever hear a report from Moira [Victim X]

2 was found in Walter's bed?

3 A. No, I didn't. I don't think Moira knew [Victim X]

4 from Adams or Fox.

5 MR. WALKER: I would like to remind you here

6 of an agreement we had.

7 MR. DOLAN: I know about it. I'm not going

8 there.

9 MR. WALKER: Okay.

10 MR. DOLAN: I'm going to be very respectful

11 of that. I'm going to be very respectful of her.

12 MR. WALKER: Okay.

13 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you ever talk to [Victim X]

14 about the sexual relationship between [Victim X] and Walter?

15 A. Not to my memory, no.

16 Q. Did you ever report this sexual relationship

17 between your husband and a minor child to the police?

18 A. Not to my knowledge.

19 Q. Can you tell me, were you aware that it was

20 illegal for your husband to be having sex with a minor

21 child?

22 A. No, I was not. I believed at that time --

23 I know you told me not to volunteer anything.

24 But I did seriously believe at that time that

25 a teenage boy was old enough to make his own judgments

SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988

19

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 in this matter. They let a girl get married when she's

2 12, and I thought that a boy of 14 or 15 would certainly

3 be old enough.

4 Q. So it was your personal opinion that a boy of

5 14 to 15 years old was old enough to make decisions

6 about having sex with a 50-year-old man?

7 A. Yes, I was. I believe so.

8 He was not 50 at the time.

9 Q. How old was he?

10 A. 30.

11 He and I were the same age. I've been told

12 since that he was two years older than that, but I

13 believe that that was what his mother told him.

14 Q. Did you have any other discussions with

15 [mother of Victim X] about the sexual relationship between

16 your husband and her minor child?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did your husband ever pay any money to [mother of

19 Victim X], as far as you know, to settle any disputes

20 between her and himself regarding sex between himself

21 and her minor child?

22 A. No.

23 Q. When did your husband give a bicycle to this

24 child?

25 A. I think it was about three months before I

SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 came to join him.

2 Q. Do you know where this woman lives now,

3 [mother of Victim X]?

4 A. No. I don't even know if she's still alive.

5 Q. Do you know if your husband ever wrote any

6 poems that he published about his sexual relationship

7 with [Victim X]?

8 A. I never saw them if he did.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. I know that he translated some Italian work

11 on the subject because he had me help him with the

12 translation.

13 Q. Did you ever -- strike that.

14 To your knowledge, was the subject of your

15 husband's sexual relationship with [Victim X] the

16 basis for the "Boondoggle"?

17 A. Yes; I think so.

18 Q. Can you briefly describe for us your

19 understanding of what the "Boondoggle" was?

20 A. There was a young man up in -- I think it was

21 in Washington, not D.C., up north in Washington, and he

22 wanted the -- to be the recipient of what they call the

23 Big Pond Fund, which sent a man overseas to the

24 convention in England. Walter also had been nominated

25 for that. And Jack Sphere was -- the other man was

SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 afraid that Walter would get it, so he published this

2 thing about Walter being all of these things, a

3 pedophile, and guilty of this, that and the other, and

4 everything -- everything up to and including the Civil

5 War.

6 Q. Did you ever publicly defend Walter in terms

7 of his not being a pedophile?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. And was that during the "Boondoggle"?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell me why you would publicly state

12 that Walter was not a pedophile when you knew that he

13 had been having sex with a minor child?

14 A. Because, as I said, [Victim X] did not impress me

15 as a minor child. He was late in his teens, and I

16 considered him -- I think he would have been old enough

17 to be married in this state legally, so I figured what

18 he did sexually was his own business.

19 Q. The "Boondoggle" was partly -- the subject

20 matter was directed partly towards the sexual

21 relationship with [Victim X] and Walter Breen;

22 correct?

23 A. As far as I can remember, yes.

24 Q. And did you --

25 Was the existence of that sexual relationship

SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 part of Walter's defense in the "Boondoggle"?

2 A. As I say, it was a long time ago. I don't

3 remember whether I denied it or whether I said that it

4 was nobody's business.

5 Q. But you did one of the two, either denied it

6 or said it was nobody's business?

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. At what point do you personally believe that

9 it's inappropriate to have sex with a minor child?

10 A. At this point I have no opinion on the

11 matter.

12 Q. Did you ever publish any documentation

13 regarding the "Boondoggle" in any of the fanzines?

14 A. Not that I remember.

15 Q. Did you ever publish anything in the fanzine

16 called "The Loyal Opposition"?

17 A. I don't remember. I may have, but I....

18 Q. Did Bill Donaho publish something that you

19 considered to be a slander about you?

20 A. Yes, he did.

21 Q. And what was that?

22 A. Well, as far as I remember, there was a

23 cartoon. Bill Donaho is a big blowhard. The only time

24 I ever met him he was very rude to me, and I didn't like

25 him.

SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 Q. And what was the subject matter of the

2 cartoon that you felt was a slander of you?

3 A. It was a picture of some character standing

4 around saying, "Why don't you two get started while I

5 make up the fire" or something. I don't remember very

6 clearly.

7 Q. Was there anything that Bill Donaho said that

8 led you to believe that he was claiming you were a

9 person who could only drag Walter down to deeper depths

10 of depravity?

11 A. I have no idea.

12 Q. I'm going to show you a document that we're

13 going to mark as Plaintiffs' No. 2.

14 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2 was marked for

15 identification.)

16 MR. DOLAN: Q. I'm going to ask you to look

17 at the first page of Plaintiffs' 2. It's a two-page

18 document from a fanzine entitled "The Loyal Opposition."

19 A. Oh, yes. I vaguely remember.

20 Q. Would you look at Page 2 where your name

21 appears?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you write these two paragraphs here? And

24 please take the time to read it, if that will be of help

25 to you.

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24

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 A. He's lying in his teeth. The scandal's so

2 unbelievable that I cannot repeat it here.

3 Q. What was the scandal?

4 A. It was --

5 Well, as I say, it was that cartoon

6 showing -- showing David and me and Walter, and Walter

7 was supposedly saying, "Why don't you two get started

8 while I get things locked up" or something of that sort.

9 Q. "Get started" referencing a sexual act?

10 A. I think that was implied.

11 Q. When you said "David," are you talking about

12 your son?

13 A. My oldest son, yes.

14 Q. That was the item that you were thinking

15 could not be sent through the U.S. mail?

16 A. Something like that.

17 At that time I had been in -- I believed very

18 firmly that obscene matter was not fit to be sent

19 through the mail. There had been a big scandal about

20 it.

21 Q. Have you yourself been arrested for sending

22 obscene things through the mail?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When was that?

25 A. While I was living in Texas.

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25

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 Q. And what was the documentation that you sent

2 through the mail that was -- caused you to be arrested?

3 A. One that caused me to be arrested was a young

4 man with whom I had been corresponding for many years,

5 whose name was Dean Boggs, had asked me some

6 questions -- having no brothers or sisters -- about

7 female anatomy, and I drew him a picture to illustrate.

8 It was a picture that one might have found on the pages

9 of an anatomy or biology textbook.

10 Q. How old was Dean Boggs at the time that you

11 sent him this graphic drawing?

12 A. I think he and I were within a few weeks of

13 each other in age.

14 Q. How old were you?

15 A. I think I was about 32. It was the year

16 before I married Walter.

17 Q. Did you plead guilty to that charge?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. In what county of Texas was this?

20 A. I don't remember. It was in the county -- I

21 think it was up in a town called Rochester. And at the

22 time I was going to college in Abilene, and the hearing

23 was held there.

24 Q. Were there any other items that you had sent

25 through the mail that had likewise been intercepted?

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26

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 A. Not that I can remember.

2 MR. WALKER: I don't think that she testified

3 that anything was intercepted.

4 MR. DOLAN: Q. Do you know how the mail was

5 found to be obscene by the authorities?

6 A. Personally I think they were -- strike that.

7 I believe that they illegally examined some

8 of my letters.

9 Q. Okay. So, to your understanding, those

10 letters were intercepted by the post office?

11 A. I believe so.

12 At the time I believe that first-class mail

13 was supposed to be in violate. I think the matter was

14 still under question at the Supreme Court at that time.

15 Q. Was there any other mail that you know of

16 that was intercepted of yours around that time?

17 A. I believe they took a book that I had sent to

18 me from France. It was Vladimir Nabokov's "Lolita,"

19 which was later judged to be quite permissible.

20 Q. It's actually been put on Showtime and HBO

21 last week, as a matter of fact, with Jeremy Irons as the

22 leading man.

23 A. I saw the old James Mason version.

24 Q. Right.

25 If you look at this document in front of you

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27

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 again, in the second paragraph it says in here, "Anyone

2 who defends Walter Breen is worse than Walter." Do you

3 see where you've written that?

4 A. Where?

5 Q. Well, it's actually in the --

6 A. Oh, yes.

7 Q. -- third sentence.

8 A. I was quoting Bill Donaho.

9 Q. Were you at that time defending Walter Breen?

10 A. Yes, I was.

11 Q. And how were you defending Walter Breen?

12 A. By saying that whatever it was was nobody's

13 business but his.

14 Q. And, to your knowledge, did you ever publicly

15 during that defense of Walter Breen state that it never

16 happened?

17 A. I don't remember, but I don't think so.

18 Q. Who's [Johnny Doe 1]?

19 A. Oh, he's a little kid who was living around

20 our property at that time.

21 Q. How old was [Johnny Doe 1]?

22 A. I think he was about 13, 14.

23 Q. To your knowledge, did your husband ever have

24 a sexual relationship with [Johnny Doe 1]?

25 A. I don't know. At that time I believed Walter

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 was completely impotent.

2 Q. My question is not whether you believed

3 Walter was impotent, but did you ever receive any facts

4 or information that led you to believe that Walter was

5 having a sexual relationship with [Johnny Doe 1]?

6 A. No, I did not.

7 Q. Did your daughter ever report that [Johnny Doe 1] had

8 been found in Walter's bed?

9 A. She did.

10 Q. Did you find that odd?

11 A. No. Walter had shared a bed with me on many

12 occasions perfectly innocently.

13 Q. You knew that Walter was a pedophile at that

14 time?

15 A. I knew it. Intellectually, yes, I knew it.

16 Q. And you knew that he was sharing a bed with a

17 13-year-old boy at that point; correct?

18 A. Yes. But, as I say, I believed Walter was

19 impotent and nothing that could bother anyone could

20 happen.

21 MR. WALKER: Now, when you say "sharing a

22 bed," I think she was testifying about one occasion. I

23 don't think --

24 THE WITNESS: Same occasions.

25 MR. WALKER: I don't think you've asked --

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 MR. DOLAN: Sharing a bed one time or more

2 with a 13-year-old boy -- we're going to get into in

3 more detail here.

4 MR. WALKER: I just want to make sure the

5 record is clear what you're asking her. Ask her a good

6 question, and she'll give you the answer.

7 MR. DOLAN: My questions are good. I like my

8 questions.

9 THE WITNESS: I was starting --

10 MR. WALKER: You don't have to answer. Let

11 him pose a question, and then you can answer.

12 THE WITNESS: All I was going to say is that

13 on one occasion I shared a house -- I shared a bed with

14 about seven other people, but we were all having a party

15 overnight at the -- I think it was up at the -- what's

16 the name? I've forgotten her name. I drew a blank.

17 The lady and her husband were hosting an overnight

18 party, and there were about 14 people there. And I

19 think about nine of us piled into bed together.

20 MR. DOLAN: Q. How many of those were

21 children?

22 A. Four or five, I think.

23 Q. So you've shared a bed with minor children

24 before too?

25 A. Well, they were all little girls.

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30

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 Q. At the time were you aware that [Johnny Doe 1]

2 was in Walter's bed on more than one occasion?

3 A. No, I was not.

4 Q. Did you make any attempts to adopt

5 [Johnny Doe 1]?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Through what agency did you attempt to adopt

8 [Johnny Doe 1]?

9 A. I think it was the Alameda County Children's

10 Protective Services or something to that effect. It was

11 a long time ago, and I don't really remember much about

12 it.

13 Q. Did you have to undergo any kind of

14 interviews or evaluation for the fitness of being

15 adoptive parents?

16 A. Yes. We went to a class for counseling for

17 adoptive parents.

18 Q. And at what time frame was this that you had

19 heard the report that [Johnny Doe 1] had been in Walter's

20 bed?

21 A. I don't remember.

22 Q. Can you give me an estimate or approximation?

23 A. No; I really can't. That was a long time

24 ago.

25 Q. Was it when you were living at 2221 Prince

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31

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 Street with Walter?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was it prior to your -- you and Elisabeth

4 moving out of 2221 Prince Street?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 Q. Was it in the 1980s?

7 A. It may well have been.

8 Q. Was it before Ken Smith's molestation was

9 reported?

10 A. I never heard of Ken Smith. I mean, I'm told

11 now that I know who he was, but I don't have any clear

12 memory of him.

13 Q. Do you recall the fact that Walter was

14 arrested for the molestation of Ken Smith?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was the fact that Walter was in bed with

17 [Johnny Doe 1] known to you before Ken Smith was arrested?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Strike that. I'm going to ask the question

20 again.

21 Was the fact that Walter was in bed with

22 [Johnny Doe 1] known to you before Walter was arrested for

23 the molestation of Ken Smith?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was the fact that Walter was in bed with

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 [Johnny Doe 1] known to you before you rented him the

2 premises known as the goldfish bowl?

3 A. No.

4 Q. So you found that out after you had rented

5 him the goldfish bowl?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And were you aware that he was found in bed

8 with [Johnny Doe 1] at the goldfish bowl?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Where was he found in bed with [Johnny Doe 1]?

11 A. I don't remember.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. I thought of [Johnny Doe 1] as a little boy that came

14 over the house, and he used to sit on my lap.

15 Q. Did you think [Johnny Doe 1] was of the age to make

16 decisions whether or not he could have a sexual

17 relationship with Walter?

18 A. I was sort of ambivalent about that. [Johnny Doe 1]

19 was like a stray cat that somebody put out on the

20 street, and I think he was surviving any way he could.

21 Q. That would include having sex with older men?

22 A. Probably.

23 MR. WALKER: Objection. Asks for

24 speculation.

25 MR. DOLAN: I just asked her --

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33

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 MR. WALKER: I don't think that that's --

2 MR. BAKER: Argumentative.

3 MR. DOLAN: Did you get the answer?

4 THE REPORTER: Yes.

5 MR. DOLAN: Q. Was [Johnny Doe 1] surviving by

6 having sex with older men?

7 MR. BAKER: Argumentative.

8 THE WITNESS: I don't know.

9 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you ever talk to [Johnny Doe 1]

10 [Johnny Doe 1]'s mother?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you ever talk to his parents at all about

13 this proposed adoption?

14 A. Yes. His mother came to see us on one

15 occasion, and she paid more attention to the cat than

16 she did [Johnny Doe 1]. She just said, "Oh, hello, [Johnny Doe 1]," and

17 then she never looked at him or talked to him again.

18 Q. Did you talk to her at all?

19 A. Very little.

20 Q. So your testimony just given two seconds ago

21 that you didn't speak to her was incorrect?

22 A. Yes; I spoke to her formally.

23 Q. Did you tell her that your husband and her

24 child had been in bed together?

25 A. No, I did not.

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34

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 Q. Why didn't you?

2 A. It didn't occur to me that it was important.

3 Q. Did you ever disclose to her that your

4 husband was a pedophile?

5 A. I never thought of him that way.

6 Q. Did you ever tell her that your husband had a

7 sexual relationship with a minor boy named [Victim X]?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you ever have any knowledge that your

10 husband had been arrested in Atlantic City for lewd and

11 lascivious acts with a minor?

12 A. No, I did not know that.

13 Q. Do you know who Kevin was in New York?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who was Kevin?

16 A. He was a young man. At that time there were

17 many multiple marriages, and at that time Walter and

18 Kevin formed a triangle. It went on only for a short

19 time.

20 Q. Okay. How old was Kevin?

21 A. I think he was 21 or 22.

22 Q. Let's get back to [Johnny Doe 1] for a minute.

23 Did you ever have to fill out any paperwork

24 to adopt [Johnny Doe 1]?

25 A. I don't remember.

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35

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 Q. Did you ever disclose to the Berkeley -- or

2 strike that -- the Alameda County Youth Authority, who

3 you think it was, that your husband was a pedophile?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you conceal that from them?

6 A. I didn't think about it.

7 Q. Did the police ever investigate your

8 husband's relationship with [Johnny Doe 1]?

9 A. No.

10 Q. To your knowledge, did the Berkeley Police

11 ever investigate your husband's relationship with minor

12 children prior to this incident with Ken Smith?

13 A. Not that I know of.

14 Q. To your knowledge, did the police investigate

15 the issue surrounding the "Boondoggle"?

16 A. They did not.

17 Q. Did you ever tell your daughter that your

18 husband preferred young boys between the ages of 9 and

19 10?

20 A. I don't think so.

21 Q. Can you deny that as you sit here today?

22 A. I don't remember doing so.

23 Q. Okay. But you can't deny it specifically

24 never happening?

25 A. Correct.

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36

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 MR. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered.

2 MR. DOLAN: Q. You can answer.

3 A. No, I don't remember any such thing.

4 Q. All right. If your daughter testified under

5 oath that you told her that your husband preferred boys

6 between the ages of 9 and 10, would you be able to deny

7 that conversation?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. BAKER: Objection. Speculation.

10 MR. WALKER: And Counsel, we've already

11 talked about this.

12 MR. DOLAN: We talked about -- we can step

13 outside if you want.

14 MR. WALKER: Let's step outside.

15 MR. DOLAN: Pardon us.

16 (Mr. Dolan, Mr. Bonagofsky, Mr. Walker and

17 Mr. Baker exit and return.)

18 MR. DOLAN: Q. If your daughter were to

19 testify that you had spoken to her and told her that

20 Walter preferred sex with boys between the ages of 9 and

21 10, would you be able to deny that conversation ever

22 taking place?

23 MR. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered.

24 Speculation.

25 MR. WALKER: I'll join in the objection.

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37

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 MR. DOLAN: Q. You can answer.

2 A. I would say that I deny it absolutely.

3 Q. Okay. How many times did [Johnny Doe 1] stay

4 over at your house?

5 MR. WALKER: I think that lacks foundation.

6 I don't think she testified that he stayed over.

7 MR. BAKER: Join.

8 THE WITNESS: I don't remember.

9 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did [Johnny Doe 1] stay over at

10 your house?

11 A. I don't remember.

12 Q. So you don't know either way?

13 A. (Shakes head.)

14 Q. Is that a "Yes"?

15 A. I would say that I do not know.

16 Q. Okay. Whose [Johnny Doe 2]?

17 A. Oh, he's some -- he's a neighbor up the

18 street.

19 Q. Does he still live up the street?

20 A. That was many years ago, but I think probably

21 he does.

22 Q. Okay. Do you know his mother's name?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you know where up the street they lived

25 from you?

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38

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 A. No; just somewhere up the street.

2 Q. To your knowledge, was there ever any

3 accusation that Walter was having a sexual relationship

4 with [Johnny Doe 2]?

5 A. I never heard it if there was.

6 Q. Have you ever spoken to any of the parents of

7 any minor children, informed them that Walter would

8 never harm them?

9 A. I don't remember.

10 Q. Have you ever told any of the parents of

11 minor children that Walter was not a pedophile?

12 A. I don't remember the subject has ever come

13 up.

14 Q. So you don't remember either way; correct?

15 A. Uh-huh, I don't remember either way.

16 Q. How old was [Name A] when you began

17 having a sexual relationship with her?

18 MR. WALKER: Objection. Argumentative and

19 lacks foundation.

20 MR. DOLAN: I'll rephrase.

21 Q. Did you ever have a sexual relationship with

22 [Name A]?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you ever participate in an orgy with

25 [Name A]?

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39

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 A. Depending on what you call....

2 Q. Did you ever participate in an orgy with

3 Elisabeth Waters, [Name A] and Philip Wang?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Was she ever present during a sexual act that

6 you were involved in with other people?

7 A. She might have been.

8 Q. Elisabeth Waters has testified to being

9 involved in an orgy with you and [Name A]. Do

10 you deny that ever took place?

11 A. I neither deny nor affirm it. I simply don't

12 remember any such event.

13 Q. Did you ever have sexual relations with [Name A]--

15 MR. WALKER: Objection. That's been asked

16 and answered.

17 MR. DOLAN: Q. -- of any kind.

18 MR. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered.

19 MR. DOLAN: Q. You can answer.

20 A. Not that I can remember.

21 I was riding once in a car with her, and she

22 kept putting her hand on my knee. And I shoved her hand

23 off my knee, and we hit the curb. We hit the curb and

24 blew a tire.

25 Q. Did [Name A] come to live with you?

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40

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How old was she when she came to live with

3 you?

4 A. I think she was 18 or 19.

5 Q. How old was Elisabeth Waters when she came to

6 live with you?

7 A. 28.

8 MR. WALKER: Counsel, were you asking when

9 [Name A] came or when Elisabeth Waters came?

10 MR. DOLAN: Q. When Elisabeth Waters came

11 and lived with you, how old was she?

12 A. 28.

13 Q. Is she your cousin?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what is she, your first, second cousin,

16 what?

17 A. Ninth.

18 A friend of ours has a hobby doing genealogy,

19 and we looked it up and found out that we were cousins

20 in the ninth degree, that we had a common ancestor on

21 the Mayflower.

22 Q. Other than -- well, strike that.

23 Did [Victim X] ever live with you?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did he ever stay over at the house when you

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41

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 were there with Walter?

2 A. I don't remember.

3 Q. Did [Johnny Doe 1] ever live with you?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you ever have him stay over?

6 A. Wait. Excuse me. Strike that.

7 Yes, he did. He was downstairs in a room

8 between -- that was one reason that we made him leave

9 was because we said he had to go to school and he had to

10 respect the girls' privacy. We had a young friend

11 living with us then named [Jane Doe 1], and he was always

12 popping into the girls' room when they were dressing.

13 Q. Is that [Jane Doe 1] ?

14 A. No. That's a girl called [Jane Doe 1]. She

15 was in my daughter's second grade with her, and they

16 were in dancing class together.

17 Q. And she lived with you for a time period?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Other than [Johnny Doe 1] living with you for a

20 time period, did any other minor children -- young boys

21 live with you?

22 A. Let me think. Not that I can remember.

23 Q. Whose idea was it to adopt [Johnny Doe 1]?

24 A. As I remember, Walter and I were talking it

25 over together that he had become like a son in our

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 household and that why shouldn't we try it.

2 Q. Did any members of the community oppose this

3 proposed adoption?

4 A. I don't remember them opposing it.

5 Q. Do you know if there were any background

6 investigations done by the Alameda County Youth

7 Authority of you or your husband regarding this?

8 A. I don't think so.

9 Q. Was Elisabeth Waters living at the house at

10 the time [Johnny Doe 1] was going to be adopted?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you know of Walter's pedophilic ways?

13 MR. WALKER: Lacks foundation.

14 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you ever know about

15 Walter's pedophilic ways?

16 MR. BAKER: Objection. Lacks foundation.

17 Misstates her previous testimony.

18 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did Elisabeth Waters ever

19 come to you and raise any questions about Walter's

20 behavior with young children?

21 A. Not until this thing came up with whoever it

22 was.

23 Q. With who?

24 A. I'm trying to remember. Some -- they've

25 alleged some kid I wouldn't know from Adam.

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 Q. Ken Smith?

2 A. I think that may be the one.

3 Q. Sean Sullivan?

4 A. I don't know. As I said, I have no memory of

5 any of it.

6 Q. Has anyone told you that you have memory

7 problems with certain areas of your memory?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And who told you that?

10 A. My doctor.

11 Q. Which doctor?

12 A. My heart specialist. I can't remember his

13 name at the moment.

14 Q. Do you know who Ian Studebaker is?

15 A. He's my nephew.

16 Q. To your knowledge, did Ian Studebaker ever

17 complain that Walter had --

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did Tracy Blackstone ever complain about the

20 fact that Walter had inappropriately touched Ian?

21 A. Not to me.

22 Q. Do you know if she complained about it to

23 anyone else?

24 A. I have no idea.

25 Q. Did Tracy state that Ian couldn't come over

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 to the house unless you or Elisabeth were there?

2 A. I don't know. She made that statement about

3 her daughter Fiona.

4 Q. Okay. She told you she didn't want Fiona

5 coming over to your home unless you or Elisabeth were

6 there?

7 A. That's what she said.

8 Q. Did you ever ask her why?

9 A. No. I thought Tracy was just -- well,

10 Tracy's a funny person.

11 Q. What did Tracy say to you?

12 A. As far as I know, she just said -- Tracy said

13 Fiona couldn't come over here unless Elisabeth or I were

14 there. And I thought it was simply because we were all

15 coming in and out. There were quite a lot of people

16 around.

17 Q. To your knowledge, did Walter ever have

18 underage boys, meaning boys under the age of 18, in the

19 hot tub at your house at 2221 Prince Street?

20 A. Not to my knowledge.

21 Q. Did --

22 A. David was there sometimes.

23 Q. Did Elisabeth Waters ever discuss with you

24 any concerns that she had that Walter might have been

25 molesting [Johnny Doe 3]?

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 A. No. I thought [Johnny Doe 3] was Moira's

2 boyfriend.

3 Q. Did you ever insist to Elisabeth Waters that

4 Walter was incapable of molesting [Johnny Doe 3]?

5 A. I can't remember, but it doesn't sound like

6 the sort of thing I would say.

7 Q. Elisabeth Waters in her 10-8-89 diary, which

8 was given to the police, indicates the following:

9 Quote, "And I feel like a total idiot for not having

10 said anything back when I thought Walter was molesting

11 [Johnny Doe 3] ten years ago. I guess it was just another

12 case of," quote, "'Don't trust your own perceptions when

13 the adults are telling you you're wrong.'

14 "Marion insisted that Walter was incapable of

15 it, and she was 22 years older than I and married, while

16 I was very ignorant about sex."

17 Does that refresh your recollection at all as

18 to whether you had a conversation with Elisabeth Waters

19 about the molestation of --

20 A. If she says so, it probably happened.

21 Q. Okay. Do you have any --

22 Does that refresh your recollection about

23 that conversation?

24 A. No. I don't remember the conversation at

25 all.

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 Q. Having had that read to you, do you recall

2 telling Elisabeth that, that Walter would be incapable

3 of molesting [Johnny Doe 3]?

4 A. No, I don't.

5 Q. Do you know if Walter was incapable of giving

6 oral sex to minor boys?

7 A. I have no idea. I know nothing at all about

8 oral sex. I broke up both my own marriages over it.

9 Q. What was that last part?

10 A. I said I broke up both my own marriages over

11 it.

12 Q. Did you ever talk to [Johnny Doe 3]'s parents

13 about any of this?

14 A. I don't think so.

15 MR. WALKER: Any of what, Counsel?

16 MR. DOLAN: Q. Any of these issues regarding

17 pedophilia.

18 A. No. I never met his father, and I knew his

19 mother only as part of SCA.

20 Q. The Society for Creative Anachronism?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. Do you know what the syntax dictionary?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you know who had it last?

25 A. I haven't any idea.

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47

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 Q. Did you ever see a letter from Dr. Morin

2 about [Johnny Doe 3]?

3 A. Who's Dr. Morin?

4 Q. Dr. Morin was one of Walter's psychologists.

5 A. I can't remember any such letter. I don't

6 believe I ever knew him. As far as I know, I never met

7 the man.

8 Q. Who's [Johnny Doe 4]?

9 A. The name doesn't ring a bell.

10 Q. I'm going to read to you from the 10-9-89

11 entry of Elisabeth Waters.

12 "Marion always said she'd divorce Walter if

13 he did this again. She seems to think that he molested

14 both [Victim X] and [Johnny Doe 4], but she was rather startled when I

15 told her about the letter to Dr. Morin about [Johnny Doe 3].

16 She said that she thought Walter thought of [Johnny Doe 3] as

17 a son."

18 Let me ask you a few questions about that

19 statement. Does that refresh your recollection about a

20 letter from Dr. Morin?

21 A. Yes, it does.

22 Q. Can you now tell me what you recall?

23 A. Yes. I can remember discussing the fact that

24 he thought of him as a son because Moira and Patrick

25 both thought of [Johnny Doe 3] as a brother.

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48

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 Q. Did you talk to Walter about any sexual

2 activity between himself and [Johnny Doe 3]?

3 A. It never occurred to me.

4 Q. It didn't occur to you to talk about it?

5 A. No. I wouldn't even have thought about it.

6 Q. Do you recall the letter from Dr. Morin now?

7 A. I never saw any such letters.

8 Q. Did Elisabeth ever tell you about a letter to

9 Dr. Morin about [Johnny Doe 3] that Walter had written?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you ever tell Elisabeth that you thought

12 Walter had molested both [Victim X] and [Johnny Doe 4]?

13 A. I can't remember. I don't believe I ever

14 discussed it with Elisabeth, but I might have in

15 passing.

16 Q. If Elisabeth states that you discussed it

17 with her, do you deny having those discussions?

18 A. No, I wouldn't deny it. But I think she

19 might have written in her diary and forgotten to read it

20 to me or something. Elisabeth does not have the

21 greatest memory in the world either.

22 Q. I've noticed.

23 Do you have any recollection of anybody named

24 [Johnny Doe 4] ever being over at the house?

25 A. I think Moira had a boyfriend of that name.

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49

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 Q. Do you have any understanding as to whether

2 [Johnny Doe 4] was ever molested by Walter Breen?

3 A. I wouldn't have inquired into the matter or

4 thought about it.

5 Q. Did you know that Walter had a lot of young

6 boys over at the house?

7 A. No. I didn't notice. I was never over at

8 the goldfish bowl.

9 Q. How about when he was living with you?

10 A. Well, he had friends, yes.

11 Q. Young boys?

12 A. Occasionally.

13 Q. Did Walter have an unusual number of young

14 boyfriends for a man of his age?

15 A. I wouldn't think so.

16 Q. Did you state that you would divorce Walter

17 if he ever did this again?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. What did you mean by doing this again?

20 A. I meant if he ever molested a young boy

21 again.

22 Q. And when you say "again," who were the other

23 young boys that you were talking about him molesting?

24 A. [Victim X] especially.

25 Q. Any others?

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 A. I can't remember any offhand.

2 Q. Are you aware of there being others?

3 A. There might have been. I would not have

4 inquired into the matter.

5 Q. But to your knowledge, there might have been

6 others besides [Victim X]?

7 A. There might have been.

8 Q. But you didn't specifically inquire into

9 that?

10 A. At the time I did not. I can look back now

11 and see there might have been, but I didn't know at the

12 time.

13 Q. Did you ever warn any people in the general

14 public about Walter's tastes for young boys?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you know that Walter was attending

17 conventions where lots of young children were?

18 A. I think he had only been to coin conventions,

19 and they sort of flocked around him like -- like bees

20 around honey. He was an expert on coins and an

21 authority on the subject.

22 Q. Okay. Did Walter ever attend science fiction

23 conventions?

24 A. Once or twice.

25 Q. Did you pay for his attendance at those

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 conventions?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. As somebody who was paying for his attendance

4 at those conventions, did you ever warn people at the

5 convention that Walter was a pedophile?

6 THE WITNESS: No.

7 MR. BAKER: Objection. Argumentative.

8 MR. WALKER: I'll join that.

9 THE WITNESS: I did not.

10 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you ever warn any of the

11 people at the convention about Walter's tastes in young

12 boys?

13 THE WITNESS: No.

14 MR. BAKER: Objection. Lacks foundation.

15 THE WITNESS: Never occurred to me.

16 MR. DOLAN: Q. You were aware that Walter

17 had a sexual appetite for young boys?

18 A. I suppose I was.

19 Q. Did you ever warn people at the conventions

20 of Walter's sexual appetite for young boys?

21 THE WITNESS: No, I did not.

22 MR. BAKER: Same objections.

23 MR. DOLAN: Q. Indeed you defended Walter's

24 expulsion from a convention on the basis of pedophilia,

25 didn't you?

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 MR. BAKER: Objection. Argumentative.

2 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.

3 MR. DOLAN: Q. So in addition to never

4 warning people, you actually defended his presence

5 there, didn't you?

6 MR. BAKER: Objection. Argumentative.

7 MR. WALKER: Asked and answered.

8 MR. DOLAN: Q. You can answer.

9 A. I thought it was his own business.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. And we did not discuss the subject, as far as

12 I can remember.

13 Q. Did he attend these coin conferences as an

14 employee of yours?

15 A. No, he did not. I had no interest in the

16 coin business.

17 Q. I'm talking about the science fiction

18 conventions.

19 A. No, he did not.

20 Q. Why did you pay his way, then?

21 A. Because he was my husband. He had shared

22 things with me when we were very poor; and then when I

23 got money, I shared things with him.

24 Q. Maybe we could take a break. Are you okay?

25 A. Yes, I'm fine.

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 Q. Was Walter an employee of yours during the

2 time that he attended these conventions?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Was he ever an employee of yours?

5 A. I believe he wrote some articles for the

6 magazine.

7 Q. Did you ever pay him as an employee?

8 A. No. I paid him for what he wrote and was

9 printed in the magazine.

10 Q. Was he ever paid a salary by you or your

11 company?

12 A. I don't think so. I don't remember very

13 clearly. I seldom think much about money at all.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. The thing is that when we were very broke, he

16 was always very good about sharing his poverty with me;

17 and then when I began to make money, I shared everything

18 I had with him.

19 MR. DOLAN: I'm looking for some guidance

20 here. We okay here?

21 MR. WALKER: I mean, we only have about five

22 more minutes left. Are you okay to keep --

23 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'm fine.

24 MR. DOLAN: I'm going to take a break for two

25 minutes, and I'll take my five minutes, and we'll be out

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54

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 of here. Okay?

2 MR. WALKER: Okay.

3 MR. DOLAN: I just need to talk to Scott for

4 a moment.

5 (Mr. Dolan and Mr. Bonagofsky exit and

6 return.)

7 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you ever tell Elisabeth

8 Waters that children didn't have erogenous zones?

9 A. I may well have.

10 Q. Do you have the belief that children don't

11 have erogenous zones?

12 A. At the time I believed it.

13 Q. And what time was that?

14 A. I think it was probably when my own kids were

15 young.

16 Q. Are you aware of Walter writing any posthumus

17 letters to Ken Smith?

18 A. Posthumus letters?

19 Q. There is some indication that he had written

20 letters to be delivered posthumously.

21 A. I thought if he wanted it --

22 Q. Did you ever receive such a letter?

23 A. No.

24 -- he would have written it to me.

25 Q. Did you ever state to your daughter that

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 these young boys got what they deserved?

2 A. I don't remember.

3 Q. You don't remember either way?

4 A. No.

5 Q. All right. Did you attend the Westercon 4 on

6 Halloween weekend in 1982?

7 A. I believe so.

8 Q. Did you attend the Westercon 5 in 1985 on

9 Halloween weekend?

10 A. I don't remember.

11 Q. Do you have records of what conferences you

12 attended?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you attend the 1984 Nebula Awards?

15 A. I probably did. I attend -- you'd have to

16 tell me when it was held. I go to them if they're

17 anywhere within my traveling capacity.

18 Q. Okay. In New York, the 1984 Nebula Awards.

19 A. No.

20 Q. Were you aware that Ken Smith was spending

21 time with Walter Breen over at the other home that you

22 rented to Walter Breen?

23 A. I never saw Ken Smith and, to the best of my

24 knowledge, I never heard of him.

25 Q. Did you speak to the police following the

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 arrest for the molestation of Ken Smith?

2 A. I don't remember, but I don't think so. I

3 probably would have remembered it.

4 Q. There are statements attributed to you in the

5 police report following the molestation of Ken Smith.

6 A. I don't remember them.

7 Q. If you had spoken to the police, would you

8 have been truthful and correct to them?

9 A. Yes, I would.

10 Q. The police officer records, quote, "I

11 asked" -- and this is on page -- it's not listed by

12 page, but it's Report No. 89-42141, which has been

13 provided previously to counsel. And it's a date of --

14 MR. WALKER: Do you have a copy of that right

15 now?

16 MR. DOLAN: -- 2-6-90.

17 Let's mark this as the next in order. It's

18 going to be the fourth page back.

19 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 3 was marked for

20 identification.)

21 MR. DOLAN: Q. I'm going to show you what's

22 been marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 3, and I'm going

23 to refer you to Page 4, the last paragraph of

24 Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 3, Page 4. Quote, "I asked if

25 she knew Ken Smith, and she said met him in the fall of

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57

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 1988, briefly because Breen had brought him over, but

2 that she does not know his family."

3 Does that refresh your recollection as to

4 whether or not you had met Ken Smith?

5 A. I don't remember him.

6 Q. Okay. So you don't remember either way?

7 A. No, I don't. I've been racking my brains

8 back and forth, but I can't remember ever meeting Ken

9 Smith.

10 Q. In 1990, in that same page, you told the

11 officer you did not think that Breen was actually

12 engaging in sexual activity with young boys.

13 A. I believed that at the time.

14 Q. At that time you knew that he had sexual

15 activity with [Victim X] when [Victim X] was under the age

16 of 18, didn't you?

17 A. Yes, I did. But as I said, [Victim X] was

18 a teenager, and, as I remember, this was some little kid

19 around 10, 12 years old.

20 Q. Would 12 years old be too young, in your

21 opinion, then?

22 MR. BAKER: Calls for speculation.

23 MR. WALKER: Join.

24 THE WITNESS: No opinion.

25 MR. WALKER: Counsel, I think we're just

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58

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 about done with the hour and --

2 MR. DOLAN: Sure. We'll set up a another

3 date.

4 Thank you for your time. We were going to

5 suspend but not conclude your deposition today. Okay?

6 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

7 MR. DOLAN: Have a good day, ma'am.

8 THE WITNESS: You too.

9 (Whereupon, the deposition adjourned at 12:01

10 p.m.)

11

12

13

________________________

14 MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

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59

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98

1 I, the undersigned, hereby certify that the

2 witness in the foregoing deposition was, by me, duly

3 sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but

4 the truth in the within-entitled cause.

5

6 That said deposition was taken in shorthand by

7 me, a Certified Shorthand Reporter and a disinterested

8 person, at the time and place therein stated, and that

9 the testimony of said witness was thereafter reduced to

10 typewriting, by computer, under my direction and

11 supervision.

12

13 I further certify that I am not of counsel or

14 attorney for either or any of the parties of the said

15 deposition, nor in any way interested in the event of

16 this cause, and that I am not related to any of the

17 parties thereto.

18

19 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my

20 hand, this 25th day of August 1998.

21

22

23

24 ________________________

Janine P. Branco

25 CSR #10372

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60

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY, 12/14/98

1 IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

2 FOR THE COUNTY OF ALAMEDA

3 ---o0o---

4 KEN SMITH, )

)

5 Plaintiff, )

)

6 vs. ) No. 778220-2

)

7 MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY, ELISabeth )

WATERS, and DOES 1 through 10, )

8 )

Defendants. )

9 __________________________________)

10

11

12

13

14 DEPOSITION OF

15 MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY

16 VOLUME II - PAGES 61 THROUGH 120

17 _________________________________

18 Monday, December 14, 1998

19

20

21 SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES

1254 Leavenworth Street

22 San Francisco, California 94109

(415) 771-1988

23

24

25 REPORTED BY: JANINE P. BRANCO, CSR No. 10372

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61

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY, 12/14/98

1

2 I N D E X

3 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE

4 MR. DOLAN (Resumed) 64

5 ---o0o---

6 E X H I B I T S

7 PLAINTIFF'S PAGE

8 4 2-page 6-6-54 typewritten document. 99

9 5 1-page 2-1-86 document entitled 115

"Rental Agreement."

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

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62

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY, 12/14/98

1 BE IT REMEMBERED THAT, pursuant to Notice of

2 Taking Deposition and on Monday, December 14, 1998,

3 commencing at the hour of 11:24 a.m. thereof, at 200

4 Marina Boulevard, Room 1102, Berkeley, California, before

5 me, JANINE P. BRANCO, a Certified Shorthand Reporter of

6 the State of California, personally appeared

7 MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY

8 a Defendant herein, called as a witness by the Plaintiff,

9 having been by me first duly sworn, was examined and

10 testified further hereinafter as set forth.

11 ---o0o---

12 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL

13 For the Plaintiff Ken Smith

THE LAW OFFICES OF CHRISTOPHER B. DOLAN

14 655 Montgomery Street, 16th Floor

San Francisco, CA 94111

15 By: CHRISTOPHER B. DOLAN, Attorney at Law

16 For the Defendant Marion Zimmer Bradley

CAUDLE, WELCH, UMIPEG & BOVEE

17 1390 Willow Pass Road, Suite 200

Concord, CA 94520

18 By: M. HENRY WALKER, Attorney at Law

19 For the Defendant Elisabeth Waters

HAIMS, JOHNSON, MacGOWAN & McINERNEY

20 490 Grand Avenue

Oakland, CA 94610

21 By: LAWRENCE A. BAKER, Attorney at Law

22 ALSO PRESENT:

23 BELLE ROMERO

24 ---o0o---

25

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63

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY, 12/14/98

1 EXAMINATION BY MR. DOLAN (Resumed)

2 Q. Ms. Zimmer Bradley, we're going forward with

3 your deposition today based upon the limitations that have

4 been imposed by your doctors and your counsel; so we will

5 have no more than one hour today of deposition.

6 Do you understand that?

7 A. Yes, I do. Thank you.

8 Q. I've also agreed with your counsel not to delve

9 into particular areas during this session of your

10 deposition.

11 Do you understand that?

12 A. Well, I think I know what you mean.

13 Q. Okay. I will not be asking any questions about

14 your relationship with your daughter.

15 Do you understand that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I reserve my right to do so at a future date;

18 okay?

19 A. Okay.

20 Q. Who is the president today?

21 A. William Clinton.

22 Q. Do you know who the vice president is?

23 A. I am not sure.

24 Q. Do you know who the governor of the State of

25 California is?

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY, 12/14/98

1 A. The last I heard it was Willie Brown.

2 Q. Okay. And do you know who was elected governor

3 recently?

4 A. Gray Davis.

5 Q. Do you know what party Gray Davis is a member

6 of?

7 A. I think he's a democrat.

8 Q. Do you know what day today is?

9 A. December 12th or 13th, 1998.

10 Q. Do you know what day of the week it is?

11 A. Monday.

12 Q. How many children do you have?

13 A. Three.

14 Q. Where is your home when you're not living in

15 this hotel?

16 A. 2223 -- 2223 Fulton Street, Berkeley,

17 California.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. It's just -- it's just --

20 It's between Shattuck and Telegraph almost

21 exactly.

22 Q. Do you have another home that you own besides

23 that one?

24 A. Yes, I do. We just purchased a place on Fulton

25 Street.

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65

DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY, 12/14/98

1 Q. Okay. Where do you live when you're not living

2 here?

3 A. I live at Fulton Street, not -- yes, I live at

4 the Fulton Street house.

5 Q. Do you ever live on Prince Street when you're

6 not living here?

7 A. Well, it's on the corner of Prince and Fulton.

8 They run into each other.

9 Q. What are your children's names?

10 A. My oldest son is named David Steven Bradley; my

11 second son is Patrick Russell Breen; and my daughter is

12 named Moira Stern. She's married to Robert Stern.

13 Q. Do you have a nurse here today?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What is your nurse's name?

16 A. Belle.

17 Q. Do you know where Moira lives?

18 A. At the moment I think she's living somewhere in

19 Novato. She's going to the university there to work on a

20 master's degree.

21 Q. The reason I was asking you those questions is

22 to try to determine whether or not you're --

23 A. Whether I'm oriented in time and space.

24 Q. Right.

25 Are you feeling sufficiently oriented in time

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY, 12/14/98

1 and space to go forward with your deposition today?

2 A. Yes; I think so.

3 Q. Have you seen any physicians in the past week

4 that have indicated that you're unable to go forward with

5 this deposition?

6 A. No.

7 I've seen three physicians. None of them have

8 mentioned the deposition.

9 Q. And do you have any knowledge of why we cannot

10 go forward with your deposition today?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Very good.

13 I'm going to go over the rules of a deposition

14 with you again, even though we've gone over them once

15 before --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. -- just to make sure we're both familiar with

18 the rules of a deposition; okay?

19 A. Okay.

20 Q. The first rule of a deposition is I do not want

21 you to guess or speculate as to anything that's said here

22 today.

23 Do you understand that?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. I understand that you've had some strokes and

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY, 12/14/98

1 that you may have some memory problems, but I don't want

2 you to guess or make anything up merely to be helpful

3 today.

4 A. If I don't remember something, I just say I

5 don't remember it.

6 Q. That will be fine. Thank you.

7 The second thing is we need to talk in turn,

8 only one person talking at a time because the court

9 reporter can only take down written statements of one

10 person at a time.

11 So if you'll wait until I finish my questions

12 before you begin your answers, or wait for the attorneys

13 to finish their objections before you begin your answers,

14 that will be very helpful to us today.

15 Will you do that?

16 A. Yes; I'll try to do so. I can't guarantee it.

17 I tend to -- people ask me things, and I tend to speak

18 without thinking.

19 Q. Okay. That's fine.

20 Everything that's done here today needs to be

21 said in a full English language spoken word. We have to

22 use English, and we have to avoid grunts and groans, but

23 use "yes," "no" or any other combination of words that you

24 feel suitable or appropriate.

25 Do you understand that?

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY, 12/14/98

1 A. I'll do my best.

2 Q. If you do not understand my question, ask me to

3 help you understand the question. Tell me you don't

4 understand the question or somehow otherwise let us know

5 because if we receive an answer to a question, I will

6 assume that you understood the question asked of you.

7 Is that clear?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. At the end of the deposition process, you'll

10 have an opportunity to review the booklet that's being

11 typed by the woman to my right, to your left. You'll have

12 an opportunity to make any changes in the transcript you'd

13 like, that reads a lot like a script or a novel like you

14 may have written in the past, and you can edit it and make

15 changes to it.

16 I must caution you, however, that if you edit

17 it or make changes to it of a substantive nature, I can

18 comment on that at trial, or any other lawyer can comment

19 on that at trial in order to make you look bad or to show

20 that you may not be truthful or to say your memory is not

21 very good.

22 So if you think of something you need to change

23 today, please try to do that today so that we can avoid

24 the embarrassment later on.

25 Is that clear?

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY, 12/14/98

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. Have you read your last session of your

3 deposition?

4 A. Well, yes. But since it was -- all the

5 questions were on one page and the answers on another, I

6 found it very confusing.

7 Q. Okay. Is that your deposition or your

8 Interrogatory answers; do you know?

9 A. I don't know the meaning of those words.

10 Q. Okay. A deposition is the booklet that's being

11 written up by the court reporter to our right. It's a

12 question-and-answer thing. It reads a lot like a script.

13 And this is a copy of your deposition from the first

14 session, which has questions and answers (indicating).

15 Did you read something like that?

16 A. No. The one that I saw had the questions on

17 one page and the answers on another one and nothing but

18 numbers on them to keep them straight with.

19 Q. Something more like this that I'm showing you,

20 your responses to requests for --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- admissions?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. Is there any reason that you're aware of

25 why your deposition should not go forward today?

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY, 12/14/98

1 A. None that I'm aware of.

2 Q. Are you living in this hotel currently?

3 A. Yes, I am.

4 Q. And for how long have you been residing in this

5 hotel?

6 A. Two weeks.

7 Q. Do you have any understanding of how long you

8 expect to reside in this hotel?

9 A. Hopefully we'll be out of here in another week.

10 They have a -- they have a place for me for -- a temporary

11 one at a disabled apartment.

12 Q. Very good.

13 Have you been traveling out of the hotel

14 anywhere to go to conventions or to any types of events?

15 A. No, I have not.

16 I have been taken out to lunch once or twice.

17 That is about all.

18 Q. Okay. When did you first start living with

19 Walter Breen?

20 A. In, I think it was, 1963.

21 Q. And how did you come to know him prior to 1963?

22 A. We had been corresponding. We were both

23 members of what at that time was known as Science Fiction

24 Phantom. We both were readers of science fiction, and we

25 would write to each other and discuss the stories and the

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1 writers, and occasionally other items of interest.

2 Naturally we found we had interests in common and began

3 speaking to each other frequently on the telephone.

4 Q. Had you met personally prior to corresponding

5 with him?

6 A. Not at first. I met with him about the middle

7 of the time.

8 Q. Where did you first meet him?

9 A. New York City.

10 Q. Did you understand him to be living there at

11 the time?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Were you living in New York City at the time?

14 A. No, I was not. I was living in Albany with my

15 mother and father.

16 Q. Have you retained any of the correspondence

17 that you initially had with Walter?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Okay. When did your relationship develop in

20 terms of years to the time that you two began to live in

21 the same city?

22 A. I --

23 I am a little doubtful, but what happened was

24 that we had been talking to each other frequently on the

25 telephone, and then I decided to leave my home and move to

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1 the University, to Berkeley, University of California to

2 do graduate work there, and he said that I could stay with

3 him, and I accepted the invitation. And when I went out

4 there we moved in together.

5 Q. When you say you moved out there, is that

6 New York or California?

7 A. California.

8 Q. So the first time that you lived with Walter

9 was in California?

10 A. Yes. We had met several times before that but

11 briefly.

12 Q. When you came to California, did you live with

13 anyone other than Walter?

14 A. Yes. For a time I lived with Miriam Knight.

15 Q. And that is whom in relationship to you?

16 A. Well, she's just another lady that I met

17 through Phantom. She was married to a friend of mine.

18 Q. She still alive?

19 A. I don't have the slightest idea. I haven't

20 seen her in years. When Walter died we went to Las Vegas

21 to wait out a divorce. Marium agreed to keep my son and

22 took care of David during the six weeks I was in Novato.

23 Q. And her last name was Night, N-i-g-h-t?

24 A. K-n-i-g-h-t.

25 Q. And do you know where she lived the last time

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1 that you knew of her to be in existence?

2 A. The last time I knew of her she had -- I think

3 she had a child. I remember that she and I and Grania

4 Davis were all expecting children at the same time. I'm

5 trying to remember. I think she was living in an

6 apartment in Berkeley.

7 Q. Do you know if she ever changed her name from

8 Knight to something else?

9 A. I don't remember.

10 Q. So you began living with Walter sometime in

11 1964 -- is that right? -- in Berkeley or --

12 A. I think it was very early in '64.

13 Q. When did you marry him?

14 A. '64. Later in the year, about June.

15 Q. Prior to marrying Walter did you ever discuss

16 his relationship with any young men under the age of 18?

17 A. I think the subject may have come up in

18 passing, fleetingly. Certainly very little impression on

19 me.

20 Q. When you say the subject "may have come up in

21 passing, fleetingly," can you tell me what you can recall

22 about the subject coming up prior to your marrying him?

23 A. Maybe at that point we were discussing

24 civilization and the fact that young men among the

25 Greeks -- well, the women, of course, at that time were

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1 idiots and uneducated and living in Perdock, and so the

2 men had emotional and friendly relationships with members

3 of their own sex, and that formed the topic of

4 conversation. It was an interesting subject. We talked

5 about it a bit.

6 Q. And at that point did Walter confide to you

7 that he had sexual relationships with young men?

8 A. He did.

9 Q. And do you have an understanding of the names

10 of any of those young men?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did he give you an indication of how many

13 occasions he had sexual relationships with different young

14 men?

15 A. No. We did not talk much about it. I gather

16 it was something that just came up now and then.

17 Q. So it was your understanding it was something

18 that Walter would engage in now and then?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You understand that these sexual relationships

21 were with young men under the age of 18?

22 A. I didn't know.

23 Q. Did you form any understanding as to the

24 approximate age of the young men with which Walter was

25 having sexual relationships?

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1 A. No, I did not. He was in his 30s, so I

2 naturally assumed they would be in their 20s or 30s also.

3 Q. Didn't you come to know about [Victim X]l

4 prior to marrying Walter?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. You knew he was under the age of 18, didn't

7 you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So when you said naturally they were in their

10 20s to 30s, you knew of at least one that they weren't 20

11 to 30?

12 A. Yes; I knew of that one exception.

13 Q. Did you inquire as to any other exceptions?

14 A. No, I did not.

15 Q. Did you prior to marrying Walter Breen inform

16 him that he was to have no sexual contact with your minor

17 children?

18 A. It never occurred to me one way or the other.

19 Q. To your knowledge, did Walter ever have sexual

20 contact with your son David?

21 A. I asked David one time about it, and he told me

22 one of Walter's friends had propositioned him and that he

23 said no, and so the friend said, "Okay. Let's go ride the

24 merry-go-round."

25 Q. Okay. Tell me when you and David had this

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1 conversation.

2 A. I think it was sometime in '64. Might have

3 been early '65.

4 Q. And how old was David at that time?

5 A. I think he was 13 or 14.

6 Q. Do you know the name of the person who

7 propositioned him?

8 A. Yes, I do. His name was Robert Bashlow.

9 Q. Could you spell --

10 A. B-a-s-h-l-o-w.

11 Q. What occasioned you to ask your son David about

12 whether or not he had been propositioned by anyone?

13 A. Because I knew Robert Bashlow, and I knew that

14 anything with two legs which got in his vicinity was

15 likely to be propositioned.

16 Q. I didn't hear the last part.

17 A. I said that anyone in his vicinity of either

18 gender was likely to be propositioned. I never paid much

19 attention because my attitude was well no harm in asking

20 as long he takes no for an answer.

21 Q. So your --

22 So your understanding at that time in 1964 is

23 that there was nothing inappropriate about an older man

24 asking a minor for sex so long as the young boy said no?

25 A. As long as the young boy is given plenty of

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1 opportunity to say no.

2 Q. At that time did you also believe if the young

3 boy had said yes that would be okay then?

4 A. I had not thought a great deal about the

5 matter, but I suppose yes, that is a fair statement.

6 Q. Okay. Did you ever ask your son whether Walter

7 propositioned your son? We've mentioned now about this

8 other gentleman, Mr. Bashlow, but did you ever ask your

9 son whether Walter ever propositioned David?

10 A. It came up a few years ago.

11 Q. Tell me how it came up.

12 A. Well, somebody was talking about it, and

13 afterwards I said to David, "Did Walter ever say anything

14 to you about it?" and he said, "No. I was too old. I

15 didn't pay much attention to it."

16 He wrote me a letter saying that Walter had

17 been a very good stepfather to him. I think his exact

18 words were that when it came to stepfathers he got the

19 pick of the bisque.

20 Q. He had the what, the pick of the basket?

21 A. Pick of the bisque.

22 Q. Where did you have this discussion with David

23 where he thought he was too old for Walter?

24 A. When he was 15 or so.

25 Q. About 15?

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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. That's when you discussed this with him?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So at the time that David was 15, David

5 informed you that he believed that your then husband was

6 not propositioning him because at that point David was too

7 old for Walter's tastes?

8 A. I think that's what he said. To the best of my

9 memory, that's what he said.

10 Q. Was that consistent with your understanding at

11 that time that David at the age of 15 would be too old for

12 Walter's tastes in partners?

13 MR. BAKER: Objection. Lacks foundation.

14 MR. DOLAN: Q. You can answer.

15 MR. WALKER: I'll join in that.

16 MR. DOLAN: Q. You can answer.

17 MR. WALKER: Go ahead and answer it, if you

18 can.

19 THE WITNESS: I don't know.

20 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you ever undertake any

21 inquiry after David said that to find out exactly what

22 Walter's tastes were in terms of young men?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did it trouble you at all that your son -- that

25 your husband was interested in boys under his age?

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1 A. No, it didn't. At that time my husband and I

2 were very in love, and I had no reason to suspect that his

3 interests lay anywhere else.

4 Q. But you had asked your son that question?

5 A. It came up in conversation.

6 Q. How did it come up in conversation?

7 A. I haven't the least idea.

8 Q. To the best of your recollection, how did this

9 come up in conversation?

10 A. I'm sorry. I can't remember. It was just

11 something we were talking about.

12 Q. So, was a topic of conversation in your family

13 Walter's interests in young boys --

14 A. It could have been.

15 Q. -- back when your son was as young as 15?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When was your son born?

18 A. 1950, I think.

19 Q. And it was a topic of conversation such that

20 you asked your son whether Walter had ever propositioned

21 him; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And so you were concerned enough to ask your

24 own son whether your husband had propositioned him

25 sexually?

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1 A. I wouldn't say I was concerned. I meant the

2 subject had come up and I was curious.

3 Q. So you were curious enough to ask your own son

4 whether your husband had made a sexual proposition to him?

5 A. I wouldn't say I was concerned enough. I would

6 simply say the matter came up in conversation.

7 Q. Okay. When your son indicated that he had been

8 propositioned by Robert Bashlow, did you do anything to

9 prohibit Mr. Bashlow from coming in contact with your son?

10 A. No. I think I might have thought it was funny.

11 Q. So you thought the fact that an older man

12 propositioned your then 13-year-old son was funny?

13 A. I thought Robert Bashlow was a pretty funny

14 individual.

15 Q. And you took no steps to prevent your son from

16 coming in contact with a man who you knew had

17 propositioned him?

18 A. Considering that David was almost six feet and

19 Bashlow, as I remember, was about five foot, one, I didn't

20 worry about it.

21 Q. You're saying your son was six feet tall at the

22 age of 13?

23 A. Pretty near.

24 Q. So the question again is --

25 A. He's now six foot, six.

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1 Q. The question is: Did you undertake any action

2 to prevent any further contact between Robert Bashlow and

3 your then 13-year-old son after you learned that

4 Mr. Bashlow had sexually propositioned your son?

5 MR. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered.

6 MR. WALKER: I'll join in that objection.

7 MR. DOLAN: Q. You may answer it.

8 MR. WALKER: You can go ahead.

9 THE WITNESS: Well, I would say that -- that

10 that was much more David's business than anyone else.

11 MR. DOLAN: Q. So you didn't do anything to

12 prevent Mr. Bashlow, did you, from coming in contact with

13 your son?

14 A. No, I did not.

15 MR. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered.

16 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you discuss it with your --

17 please take your water.

18 MR. WALKER: I'm going to join in that last

19 objection.

20 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you discuss this

21 proposition of your then 13-year-old son by one of

22 Walter's friends with Walter?

23 A. The subject may have come up in conversation.

24 Q. Okay. To the best of your recollection, tell

25 me how that subject may have come up in conversation.

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1 A. Well, I think one of us would have said to the

2 other, Do you know what that idiot Bashlow has done now?

3 Q. Okay. I don't want you to guess or speculate.

4 Do you recall what Walter said in any regard regarding the

5 issue of Robert Bashlow propositioning your 13-year-old

6 son for sex?

7 MR. BAKER: Objection. Speculation.

8 MR. DOLAN: Q. You can answer.

9 MR. WALKER: I'll join in that.

10 You can answer.

11 THE WITNESS: All I know is that Bash -- that

12 Bashlow's regarded largely as a laughing stock by most of

13 our friends.

14 MR. DOLAN: Q. Right. Okay. My question is a

15 little bit more specific, though. Do you recall Walter

16 saying anything to you on the subject of Bashlow

17 propositioning your 13-year-old son?

18 A. As I said, I think he said something like, Do

19 you know what that idiot Bashlow has done now? and then he

20 recounted a story.

21 Q. Did he express any --

22 To your knowledge, did he express anything that

23 you understood to be disapproval to what Mr. Bashlow had

24 done?

25 A. I think at the time he shared my belief that

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1 David was perfectly old enough to make his own decisions

2 of that sort.

3 Q. Okay. So at that time it was your belief that

4 a 13-year-old child was perfectly able to make their own

5 decisions regarding sexual contact with adults?

6 A. Oh, really, a-13-year-old child? I wasn't a

7 child at 13, were you?

8 Q. The question --

9 Could you read back the question for her,

10 please?

11 (Record read by reporter.)

12 MR. DOLAN: Q. Do you have the question in

13 mind?

14 A. I never thought that I was very intelligent,

15 but this -- my opinion at the moment was that 13-year-old

16 young people were quite old enough to decide what they

17 wanted to do.

18 Q. Okay. Did you have any understanding at that

19 time as to whether the law was in contrast with your

20 opinion on the issue of 13-year-old children making

21 decisions about sex with adults?

22 A. I don't think I ever inquired into the matter.

23 Q. I'm going to show you some pictures, and I'm

24 going to ask you if you can identify anybody in these

25 pictures.

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1 A. No.

2 Let me see here. No. At first I thought this

3 was a picture of David in his teens, but it's not.

4 Q. To your knowledge, have you seen a picture of

5 that boy before in the pictures? Have you ever seen that

6 boy?

7 A. Not to my memory, no.

8 Q. Looking at the pictures of the young boy in

9 those pictures, do you think that boy is of the age to

10 make decisions whether or not he should be having sex with

11 adults?

12 MR. BAKER: Objection. Speculation.

13 MR. WALKER: I'll join in that. And also lacks

14 foundation. She's never seen those pictures before.

15 MR. DOLAN: Q. Okay. I'm just asking you,

16 does it appear the ages of those young boys in those

17 pictures are of the age to be making decisions as to

18 whether they should be having sex with adults?

19 MR. BAKER: Objection. Lacks foundation. She

20 doesn't know the boy. She's never even seen the picture.

21 MR. WALKER: Just a second. We don't even know

22 what age that is.

23 MR. BAKER: It's also vague. Speculation.

24 THE WITNESS: What I was going to say is that

25 I'm not a psychological counselor or a school teacher.

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1 MR. DOLAN: Q. Right. You indicated, though,

2 that you think children at a particular age are able to

3 make decisions whether or not they're going to have sex

4 with adults. That was your personal belief; right?

5 MR. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered.

6 MR. WALKER: I'll join.

7 MR. DOLAN: Q. You may answer.

8 MR. WALKER: Go ahead.

9 THE WITNESS: I would say that my personal

10 opinions are not at issue in this matter.

11 MR. DOLAN: Q. Okay. I would disagree with

12 you, and I would ask you to answer my question.

13 A. I would say that you are entitled to your

14 opinion, sir.

15 Q. I'm asking your opinion.

16 A. My opinion is my opinion.

17 MR. BAKER: She's already answered it.

18 MR. DOLAN: She's refusing to answer the

19 question.

20 MR. BAKER: She's already --

21 MR. WALKER: She has already answered that.

22 MR. DOLAN: Q. Are you of the understanding

23 that children at some particular age are capable of making

24 decisions about whether or not to have sex with adults?

25 A. I never claimed to be of great psychological

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1 knowledge, but on the surface of it I thought so at the

2 time.

3 Q. Right.

4 A. What I think now has no relevance.

5 Q. Okay. Well, at what time did you think it was

6 appropriate for children to begin to make the decision

7 whether or not to have sex with adults?

8 A. I don't believe I speculated.

9 MR. WALKER: At what time are you talking?

10 MR. DOLAN: She said "at the time."

11 MR. WALKER: Okay. But you're asking the

12 question. You have to make your question better. I'm

13 sorry.

14 MR. DOLAN: Q. At the point you indicated at

15 the time you had an understanding of when children could

16 begin to make decisions regarding sex with adults, what

17 time are you referring to, what time period?

18 A. I would say that in their middle teens most

19 teenagers are perfectly capable of deciding what they

20 want.

21 Q. Okay. When did you come to form that opinion

22 in time? Was it in the '60s? The '70s?

23 A. During my own teens, in the '40s and '50s.

24 Q. All right. And did you retain that opinion in

25 the '60s?

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1 A. I don't know when I began to change my

2 opinions.

3 Q. Do you have any knowledge if you began to

4 change your opinions prior to marrying Walter Breen?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Well, at the time that your son had informed

7 you that he had been approached by Mr. Bashlow, you still

8 were of the opinion that he at the age of 13 could make

9 that decision; right?

10 MR. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered.

11 MR. WALKER: Join in that.

12 You can go ahead.

13 THE WITNESS: I would say that -- as I say,

14 Robert Bashlow was enough of a laughing stock that I never

15 took anything he did seriously as a danger to anyone,

16 including a kitten.

17 MR. DOLAN: Q. The question I asked you,

18 though, is different, which was: At the time that that

19 incident happened between Robert Bashlow and your son, did

20 you believe that a 13 year old could make decisions as to

21 whether or not it was appropriate to have sex with an

22 adult?

23 MR. BAKER: Objection.

24 MR. WALKER: Same objections.

25 MR. BAKER: Asked and answered about ten times

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1 now.

2 THE WITNESS: I certainly think that David knew

3 what he was doing at that time and if Bashlow said

4 anything to him that he didn't like he could have broken

5 Bashlow in two with one hand, so I never took it very

6 seriously as a danger.

7 MR. DOLAN: Q. Okay. If the 13 year old

8 wasn't six feet tall, did you have any opinion that child,

9 let's say a four-foot-tall 13 year old, it would be

10 appropriate to proposition them for sex?

11 MR. BAKER: Objection. Vague. Lacks

12 foundation. Compound.

13 MR. WALKER: I'll join those objections.

14 MR. DOLAN: Q. You can answer. You may answer

15 it.

16 A. I did not speculate on the matter. If it came

17 up, it came up very briefly and crossed my mind very

18 quickly.

19 Q. How tall was [Victim X]?

20 A. I don't remember.

21 Q. Did you ever meet him?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you recall about how tall he was at the

24 time that Walter Breen was having a sexual relationship

25 with him?

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1 MR. BAKER: Objection. Speculation.

2 MR. WALKER: Lacks foundation.

3 MR. DOLAN: She testified at the last

4 deposition that she knew he was having a sexual

5 relationship with him. Foundation was laid in the first

6 deposition.

7 Q. So how tall was [Victim X] at the -- to your

8 knowledge, at the time that Walter was having a sexual

9 relationship with him?

10 MR. BAKER: Objection. Speculation.

11 MR. WALKER: Same objection.

12 And Chris, for the record, I don't know how

13 many months ago that deposition was. I don't have it in

14 front of me. She doesn't have that knowledge in mind

15 unless you ask her about it -- unless you tell her about

16 it.

17 MR. DOLAN: Q. You still remember saying that

18 Walter had a sexual relationship with [Victim X]; right?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. You just testified to that about 15 minutes

21 ago?

22 A. Yes. [Victim X] was in our house a great

23 deal.

24 Q. Due to the fact that he was in your house a

25 great deal, how tall was he?

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1 MR. BAKER: Objection. Speculation.

2 THE WITNESS: I think he was about five foot,

3 eight.

4 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you think he was big enough

5 to ward off something he didn't want too?

6 MR. BAKER: Objection. Speculation. Vague,

7 ambiguous. Lacks foundation.

8 MR. WALKER: Same objections. I'll join.

9 MR. DOLAN: Q. You may answer.

10 A. I don't believe I speculated on the matter.

11 Q. Okay. So is size a determining issue in your

12 mind as to whether or not a minor was capable of deciding

13 whether or not they should be having sexual contact with

14 an adult?

15 MR. BAKER: Objection. Speculation.

16 Foundation. Vague, ambiguous.

17 MR. WALKER: Same objections.

18 MR. DOLAN: Q. You may answer.

19 A. I didn't do any speculating.

20 Q. I didn't ask you if you speculated. You

21 indicated earlier that you didn't worry about your son

22 David because he was six feet tall and could break

23 Mr. Bashlow in half.

24 Do you remember that?

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. So I'm asking you: Is your determination or

2 understanding of when a child was able to make decisions

3 regarding sex with an adult based on the size of that

4 child and ability to physically defend themselves?

5 MR. BAKER: Same objections.

6 MR. WALKER: Same objections.

7 THE WITNESS: That would be one consideration.

8 MR. DOLAN: Q. What other considerations would

9 there be?

10 A. The general maturity of the child in question,

11 the fact whether the adult was the kind of person to be

12 threatening. If the adult was generally a non-threatening

13 person, I think my attitude would have been no harm in

14 asking if he takes no for an answer.

15 Q. Okay. And did you consider Walter to be

16 non-threatening?

17 A. I certainly did.

18 Q. So, did you feel, then, there was no harm in

19 Walter asking young children to have sex with him so long

20 as he would take no for an answer?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And until -- down to what age would that be

23 okay?

24 A. I don't believe I ever considered the matter

25 much.

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1 Q. So --

2 A. It would have come up and been dismissed from

3 my mind in a matter of moments.

4 Q. As you sit here today, do you ever recall

5 forming an opinion what would be a minimum age it would

6 okay for your husband to proposition young boys?

7 A. I never stopped to think about it.

8 Q. You never gave it any thought?

9 MR. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered.

10 MR. WALKER: Same objection.

11 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you ever come to a point

12 where you kind of consciously pushed that out of your mind

13 and made a decision not to think about Walter's

14 interaction with young boys?

15 MR. BAKER: Objection. Vague. Asked and

16 answered. Speculation.

17 MR. DOLAN: Q. You may answer.

18 MR. WALKER: Same objections.

19 THE WITNESS: I can only say I don't remember.

20 MR. DOLAN: Q. And my question is a little

21 different. Did you come to a point in time after you were

22 aware of Walter's interest in young boys that you sort of

23 made a conscious decision not to think about that subject?

24 MR. BAKER: Same objections. Asked and

25 answered as well.

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1 MR. WALKER: Same objections.

2 MR. DOLAN: Q. Pardon me?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you have the question in mind?

5 A. You mean did I ever come to such a conclusion?

6 Q. I'll ask it again.

7 Did you ever come to a point in your life where

8 knowing about your husband's interest in young men, young

9 boys, that you consciously made a decision that your sort

10 of going to turn your head the other way and not think

11 about it?

12 MR. BAKER: Same objection.

13 MR. WALKER: Same objections.

14 THE WITNESS: No, I did not come to such a

15 decision consciously to turn away from it.

16 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you ever ask your daughter

17 Moira if Walter had ever propositioned her?

18 A. What?

19 Q. Did you ever ask your daughter Moira if Walter

20 ever propositioned her?

21 A. I don't think I understand. Are you trying

22 to -- seriously asking me if my husband propositioned my

23 daughter? If you are seriously asking that question, I

24 can only say no, she did not say anything about it to me

25 until considerably later, after this was all over with.

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1 Q. My question was somewhat different, which was:

2 Did you ever ask your daughter whether Walter had ever

3 propositioned her?

4 A. No, I did not.

5 Q. But you did ask your son?

6 A. Yes; because -- because I thought that Walter

7 had a thing about young boys, which is not to be taken as

8 being acceptable in this situation, and therefore I asked.

9 Q. Did you ever ask Patrick whether Walter had

10 ever propositioned Patrick?

11 A. No, I did not.

12 Q. Is there any reason why you felt differently

13 about asking -- well, strike that.

14 Can you explain why you asked your son David

15 that question but you didn't ask your son Patrick that

16 question?

17 A. Yes. Because when we met Walter David was

18 nine. I think when we first met Walter David was nine or

19 ten. When I married him he was 13, and I understood that

20 Walter liked boys that age. Patrick was a baby. Walter

21 saw him born. It never even crossed my mind.

22 Q. Okay. Back in 1964 did you ask Walter whether

23 he was still engaging in sexual acts with [Victim X]?

24 A. I did not.

25 Q. Did you make a conscious decision not to ask

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1 him about his relationship with [Victim X]?

2 A. Yes; because [mother of Victim X] -- the subject came

3 up between us. And before you ask, I do not remember how

4 it came up, but somehow or other it came up, and [mother of Victim X]

5 had said that she had no complaint to make about Walter's

6 relationship with her son.

7 Q. Okay. So at some point you had a discussion

8 with [mother of Victim X] regarding the sexual relationship

9 between Walter and her son; right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And did you ask her how she felt about it?

12 A. I think she volunteered that. She said

13 Walter's influence on her son had been a good one all

14 around.

15 Q. Based upon what she had said to you, did you

16 form any opinion as to whether or not Walter's

17 relationship with [Victim X] was good for [Victim X]?

18 MR. BAKER: Objection. Speculation. Vague.

19 THE WITNESS: I did not.

20 MR. WALKER: Same objection.

21 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you ever ask [Victim X]

22 how he felt about the sexual relationship with Walter?

23 A. All I have to say on that point is that once

24 [Victim X] was a big strong boy, and if he had any

25 objections, he could have tied Walter into a bow knot.

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1 Q. My question is: Did you ever ask [Victim X] about

2 how he felt about the relationship with Walter?

3 A. No, I did not because, as I say, he was big

4 enough to take care of himself.

5 Q. The discussion with [mother of Victim X], did it happen after

6 you were married to Walter?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So you knew that the relationship with [Victim X] was

9 still going on after your marriage to Walter?

10 MR. WALKER: Objection. That misstates her

11 testimony.

12 MR. DOLAN: Q. At the time that you had the

13 discussion with [mother of Victim X], did you understand that

14 Walter and [Victim X] were still sexually involved?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Why were you having a discussion with [mother of Victim X]

17 about the subject?

18 A. Oh, you know how women are, they talk about

19 anything that comes up.

20 Q. So at the time that you were having a

21 discussion with [mother of Victim X], did you have any

22 understanding as to whether or not Walter and [Victim X] were

23 still sexually involved?

24 MR. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered.

25 MR. WALKER: Same objection.

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1 MR. DOLAN: Q. You may answer it.

2 A. I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question?

3 Q. Sure. At the time that you had the

4 conversation with [mother of Victim X], did you have any

5 understanding as to whether or not Walter and [Victim X] were

6 still sexually involved?

7 MR. BAKER: Same objections.

8 MR. WALKER: Same objections.

9 THE WITNESS: I don't believe I gave the matter

10 any thought.

11 MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.

12 MR. DOLAN: Q. So, did you ever tell [mother of Victim X]

13 what your opinion was on the relationship between Walter

14 and her son?

15 A. No, I did not.

16 Q. Did you ever form the opinion that it was okay

17 for Walter to have a sexual relationship with [Victim X]

18 when [Victim X] was under the age of 18?

19 A. No, I did not.

20 Q. Prior to marrying Walter, were you ever made

21 aware that Walter had been arrested for lewd and

22 lascivious acts?

23 A. No, I was not.

24 Q. Were you aware that in 1954 he had been

25 arrested as a disturbing person for molesting a child

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1 under the boardwalk?

2 A. No, I did not.

3 Q. I'm going to show you a document that we're

4 going to mark as plaintiff's next in order, which was

5 produced by your counsel previously in this litigation.

6 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 4 was

7 marked for identification.)

8 THE WITNESS: If you'll pardon my saying so,

9 this whole thing seems useless. The man is dead, and he's

10 up before a judge much more sterner than any judge in

11 California courts.

12 MR. DOLAN: Q. You're still with us, that's

13 why we're asking questions, because you're a defendant in

14 this litigation.

15 Do you realize that you're a defendant in a

16 lawsuit?

17 A. No, I did not. It never occurred to me that

18 anyone could think in those terms.

19 Q. As you sit here today, have you ever been

20 informed that you're defendant in litigation?

21 A. Well, you're informing me now.

22 Q. Prior to me informing you, have you ever

23 understood that you're a defendant in a lawsuit?

24 A. No.

25 MR. WALKER: Objection. That calls for

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1 attorney-client privileged information.

2 MR. DOLAN: Q. Well, I'm just asking prior to

3 my telling you, did you understand that you're being sued

4 because of the molestation of Ken Smith?

5 MR. WALKER: And only answer --

6 Don't answer anything that has to do with any

7 discussions that you've had with any of your attorneys.

8 MR. DOLAN: Q. Okay. If Elisabeth Waters told

9 you you were being sued or your daughter told you you were

10 being sued or you a saw document that led you to believe,

11 with your name on it, that you were being sued, anything

12 other than your lawyers actually sitting you down and

13 saying, "Hey, you're being sued."

14 Prior to sitting down in this room today, did

15 you understand that you were a defendant in a lawsuit?

16 A. Not entirely.

17 Q. Do you understand now that you're a defendant?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Can you answer my question, then? I'm asking

20 you as a defendant in this lawsuit, were you aware of how

21 that document came into your possession that was given to

22 us by your counsel?

23 A. What is this?

24 Q. It's a two-page document. Just please take a

25 look at it, and I'll ask you some questions once you've

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1 had an opportunity to review it.

2 A. I have no memory of ever having seen that.

3 Q. Okay. Do you have any understanding of where

4 your attorneys got this document they gave to us?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you keep a file of Walter's on Walter in

7 your possession at your home anywhere?

8 A. No.

9 Q. At any point prior to today did you know that

10 Walter Breen had been arrested for molesting children

11 under the boardwalk in 1954 in Atlantic City?

12 A. No, I did not. I didn't even know he had ever

13 been in Atlantic City.

14 Q. Okay. In your last deposition you indicated

15 that you had not seen [Victim X] since three years following the

16 marriage with Walter Breen.

17 Do you recall that testimony?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. During the three years that you did see [Victim X]

20 during the marriage, was [Victim X] a frequent visitor at your

21 home?

22 A. Yes, he was.

23 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, was he engaging in

24 sexual activity with Walter during the three years that he

25 was a visitor at your home?

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1 A. I have no idea.

2 Q. Did you ever so inquire knowing that Walter had

3 previously had a sexual relationship with [Victim X]?

4 A. I did not.

5 Q. Did you ever do anything to protect [Victim X]

6 from any type of sexual contact with Walter Breen

7 during the three years that he was a guest in your home

8 following your marriage?

9 A. Oh, please. The idea of me protecting little

10 [Victim X], good heavens.

11 MR. BAKER: Objection. Lacks foundation as

12 well as argumentative.

13 MR. WALKER: I'll join in those objections.

14 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you ever do anything --

15 I'll ask the question again because I would

16 like an answer to the question.

17 Did you ever do anything to protect [Victim X]

18 from sexual contact with your husband during the

19 three years following your marriage that you knew [Victim X]

20 was around your home?

21 A. It never occurred to.

22 MR. BAKER: Same objections.

23 MR. WALKER: Same objections.

24 MR. DOLAN: Q. It never occurred to you is

25 your answer, that it was necessary?

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1 MR. BAKER: Same objections.

2 MR. DOLAN: Q. You never asked [Victim X] if it was

3 okay with him; right?

4 A. I never asked [Victim X] because I knew perfectly

5 well that if anything was wrong he could come to me. We

6 were on terms that -- I mean, he was in my house. He was

7 getting milk from my refrigerator. He was eating at our

8 table. If anything had been wrong, he would have come to

9 me and said, Marion, there is something wrong. I'm quite

10 sure he would have.

11 Q. So, as long as he didn't come to you and say,

12 Marion, there is something wrong, you felt no need to

13 inquire?

14 A. No.

15 MR. BAKER: Objection. Argumentative.

16 MR. WALKER: I'll join in that.

17 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you ever --

18 Did it ever bother you that your husband might

19 be sleeping with this boy?

20 MR. BAKER: Objection. Argumentative. Lacks

21 foundation.

22 MR. DOLAN: Q. You may answer.

23 MR. BAKER: Same objections.

24 THE WITNESS: I never gave it any thought.

25 MR. DOLAN: Q. Pardon?

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1 A. I never gave it any thought. At that time I

2 was newly married to my husband. I was pregnant, and I

3 was very happy with him.

4 MR. WALKER: You can just let him ask the

5 questions, and then you can give the answers, but you

6 don't have to volunteer anything.

7 THE WITNESS: Okay.

8 MR. DOLAN: Q. During those three years did

9 Walter and you have any other boys under the age of 18 in

10 the home?

11 A. Not to my knowledge.

12 Q. Did you ever talk to Walter about whether or

13 not he was still having sex with [Victim X] after your marriage?

14 MR. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered.

15 MR. WALKER: Same objection.

16 MR. DOLAN: Q. Go ahead.

17 A. I did not.

18 Q. Did you ever say to Walter, I don't want you to

19 be having sex with anybody else now that we're married?

20 MR. BAKER: Objection. Argumentative.

21 MR. WALKER: I'll join.

22 THE WITNESS: I did not.

23 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you ever say anything to

24 Walter about, you know, Walter you need to be careful.

25 This might be illegal?

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1 MR. BAKER: Objection. Argumentative.

2 MR. WALKER: Same objection.

3 THE WITNESS: It never occurred to me.

4 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you ever discuss with

5 Walter the legality or illegality of having sex with boys

6 under the age of 18?

7 A. I did not.

8 Q. Did you ever discuss it with anybody prior to

9 Ken Smith's molestation being made known to you?

10 A. Not --

11 Yes.

12 Q. Okay. Who Did you discuss that with?

13 A. With my daughter, Moira.

14 Q. When did you discuss it with Moira?

15 A. I think it was --

16 It was shortly before her marriage.

17 Q. Before what?

18 A. Before her marriage.

19 Q. Okay. And what was the reason that you and

20 Moira discussed that?

21 A. She made an allegation that her father had

22 molested her.

23 Q. Was that before or after Ken Smith's

24 molestation was reported to the police?

25 A. I have no idea.

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1 Q. Do you know if your daughter was married before

2 or after Ken Smith's molestation was reported to the

3 police?

4 A. I thought I did, but I'm sure I don't.

5 Q. Are you still focused on the questions? Are

6 you having any difficulty answering now? Are you

7 mentally -- are you still here in time and space?

8 A. Yes. I'm trying to make up a time line in my

9 mind.

10 Q. Okay. Very good.

11 Other than your discussion with Moira prior to

12 her marriage regarding the legality or illegality of

13 Walter's contact with minor children, did you ever discuss

14 that topic with anyone else?

15 A. I can't think of anyone.

16 Q. When you and Walter were thinking about

17 adopting [Johnny Doe 1], did you ever have a discussion with

18 Walter saying, Walter, if we adopt [Johnny Doe 1] you can't have

19 sex with him?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Okay. Tell me about that.

22 A. I just told him flat out that if we adopted

23 [Johnny Doe 1] he would be our son and nothing else. That it was

24 not to be a boyfriend or anything of that sort.

25 Q. At that point did you have any concerns that

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1 Walter might be having sex with [Johnny Doe 1] such that it caused

2 you to tell Walter that?

3 A. I did not. I was just sort of vaguely thinking

4 back on our whole background.

5 Q. And when you say your "whole background," what

6 do you mean by that?

7 A. Of everything that had happened since I had

8 first met Walter and everything everyone else had said

9 about him.

10 Q. Now, you said that he would be your son and

11 nothing else. Do you think that would put him in a

12 different category than other young boys?

13 MR. BAKER: Objection. Argumentative.

14 MR. WALKER: I'll join in that. And vague and

15 ambiguous.

16 MR. DOLAN: Q. You may answer it.

17 A. I don't believe that I formulated it in any

18 way.

19 Q. What did you mean by your statement to Walter

20 that he would be our son and nothing else?

21 A. That if he had any idea in his mind that the

22 boy might be a subject for his -- his sexual interests, he

23 should put that right out of his mind right away.

24 Q. Okay. And why would --

25 A. That if he ever had such an idea, and I wasn't

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1 accusing him of it, that he should not continue thinking

2 that way.

3 Q. All right. And did you think that --

4 Was that solely because he was going to be

5 adopted by you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So if he wasn't to be adopted by you, then you

8 would not have had this conversation with Walter about

9 this boy being a part of his sexual interests?

10 MR. BAKER: Objection.

11 MR. WALKER: Objection. That lacks foundation.

12 MR. BAKER: Speculation.

13 MR. WALKER: Speculation.

14 MR. DOLAN: Q. You can answer it.

15 A. I didn't speculate on my husband's affairs. We

16 were no longer living together at that time, and I paid

17 very little attention to what was going on.

18 Q. Okay. You weren't living together. Where was

19 Walter living at that time?

20 A. He was living a couple of doors up the street.

21 Q. In the gold fishbowl?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So at the time that he was living in the gold

24 fishbowl and you were aware that [Johnny Doe 1] might be

25 adopted by you, you told Walter that he could not be a

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1 subject of Walter's sexual affection; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And did you understand that [Johnny Doe 1] might be

4 spending time at that other premises where Walter was

5 living?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Okay. And did you feel that you had some

8 responsibility to [Johnny Doe 1] to tell Walter --

9 A. Yes. That if we had adopted [Johnny Doe 1], he would

10 have been our son.

11 Q. So, did you feel you had some responsibility to

12 [Johnny Doe 1] to tell Walter no sex with [Johnny Doe 1]?

13 A. Yes. I laid down the law very firmly.

14 Q. All right.

15 A. It was one of the reasons we -- we eventually

16 split up.

17 Q. What do you mean by that?

18 A. He was very upset with me. He said I didn't

19 trust him, and, of course, I didn't.

20 Q. So you didn't trust Walter around young boys at

21 that time, did you?

22 A. At that point, no.

23 Q. And do you know approximately what year that

24 was?

25 A. I am afraid I couldn't tell you.

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1 Q. Can you give me an estimate or approximation?

2 A. I think I began to think differently of him

3 about -- about 1975 or '6.

4 Q. Okay. So sometime --

5 Was it sometime around then that [Johnny Doe 1]

6 came along?

7 A. I think it was after that.

8 Q. Approximately how long after that?

9 A. I couldn't tell you.

10 Q. Can you give me an estimate or an

11 approximation, was it before 1980, between '80 and '85,

12 anything you can do to help me?

13 A. It might have been.

14 Q. Might have been which?

15 A. Might have been between '80 and '85. [Johnny Doe 1] --

16 I saw [Johnny Doe 1] a few weeks ago.

17 Q. Okay. So you were concerned that Walter might

18 have some inappropriate sexual relationship with [Johnny Doe 1]

19 over at the other house?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you told him that that was completely

22 prohibited; right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And how old did you understand [Johnny Doe 1] to be at

25 that time?

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1 A. I thought he was about 12 or 13.

2 Q. And how big was [Johnny Doe 1]?

3 A. He was small and fragile.

4 Q. So, did you feel you had a responsibility at

5 that time to protect [Johnny Doe 1] from Walter?

6 A. Yes, I did. More than anybody else I felt very

7 protective toward [Johnny Doe 1].

8 Q. And what was -- made you feel that more than

9 anybody else you had a responsibility to [Johnny Doe 1]?

10 A. Well, when he was around he'd come sit on my

11 lap sometimes and things like that, so I developed a

12 certain feeling that he didn't have any other family and

13 that I'd take care of him.

14 Q. Did Walter ever refuse to agree to your

15 condition that he not have sex with [Johnny Doe 1]?

16 A. He didn't. No, he didn't.

17 Q. Did he ever agree to it?

18 A. I don't remember.

19 I don't think he said in so many words no, I

20 will not have sex with [Johnny Doe 1]. I think he said something

21 like, You don't have to worry about that or something.

22 Q. Was this topic of sex with [Johnny Doe 1] at all one of

23 the reasons why [Johnny Doe 1] was never adopted?

24 A. Not that I know of.

25 Q. What was your understanding as to the reason

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1 why [Johnny Doe 1] wasn't adopted?

2 A. I believe that his -- his father was in prison,

3 wanted to maintain a relationship with him and didn't want

4 him adopted.

5 Q. Were you ever interviewed by the people at CPS

6 regarding the adoption?

7 A. Yes, I was.

8 We went and attended a couple of classes on

9 adoption.

10 Q. Did they ever ask you whether either of you had

11 ever had any problems with sex with minors?

12 A. The question did not come up. Of that I am

13 perfectly sure.

14 Q. What makes you say you're perfectly sure of

15 that?

16 A. Because I think I would have remembered that.

17 Q. Did you ever inform them that Walter had had a

18 sexual relationship with [Victim X]?

19 A. No, I did not.

20 Q. Did you ever tell them that you were concerned

21 about Walter perhaps having a sexual relationship with

22 [Johnny Doe 1]?

23 A. No, I did not.

24 Q. Why didn't you?

25 A. I think the only answer I can make to that is

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1 that it's quite obvious that you have never been in love.

2 Q. Can you explain that further? I don't

3 understand your answer.

4 A. Simply that the subject did not come up even in

5 my mind. It came up briefly, and I mentioned it, and that

6 was the end of it.

7 Q. So the subject did come up in your mind enough

8 for you to raise it Walter; correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. But you didn't raise it with the child

11 protective authorities?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And you're saying that's because of your love

14 for Walter?

15 A. I don't know if by then it was love or just a

16 general sense of protectiveness.

17 Q. So, was you're not telling CPS an effort to

18 protect Walter?

19 A. I suspect it must have been.

20 Q. As you sit here today, do you believe that

21 you're not telling CPS was in an effort to protect Walter?

22 MR. WALKER: Objection. Asked and answered.

23 MR. DOLAN: Q. You may answer it.

24 A. I suspect it must have been.

25 Q. Okay. How are you doing? You need a break?

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1 A. No. I'm all right.

2 Q. Are there any other boys that you told Walter

3 you're not to have sex with that boy?

4 A. Well, Moira at one time complained that Walter

5 was coming on to one of her boyfriends.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. And I went up to Walter's house and I said,

8 "Look, this is not a good thing to do."

9 Q. Okay. Which boyfriend was that; do you

10 remember?

11 A. I think his name was [Johnny Doe 4] something.

12 Q. [Johnny Doe 4]?

13 A. It could have been.

14 Q. Okay. Did Moira ever --

15 So Moira said to you she was afraid that Walter

16 might be trying to have sex with [Johnny Doe 4]?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. Approximately when was this?

19 A. I don't remember the date. I think at that

20 time it was -- she was at University of California then.

21 Q. How old did you understand [Johnny Doe 4] to be?

22 A. I thought he was 17 or 18.

23 Q. Did you ever ask him, [Johnny Doe 4], about what

24 was going on?

25 A. No, I didn't. But I mean, the two of them were

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1 going around together, and he looked to be 18 or 19.

2 Q. And did you tell Walter not to have sex with

3 [Johnny Doe 4]?

4 A. I just said that Moira would not approve.

5 Q. So it was based upon Moira being unhappy with

6 the situation?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you ever tell Walter when he was living in

9 the gold fishbowl that he was not to have sex with minors

10 in that home?

11 A. I never mentioned the matter.

12 Q. You were the landlord there, weren't you?

13 A. I owned the house.

14 Q. Did you lease it to Walter?

15 A. No. I let him live in it because he needed a

16 place to live.

17 Q. So it's your testimony that you never leased it

18 to him?

19 A. Not formally, no.

20 MR. DOLAN: Okay. Let's mark this as

21 plaintiff's next in order.

22 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 5 was

23 marked for identification.)

24 MR. DOLAN: It's already been marked as

25 Plaintiff's 3 to Elisabeth Water's deposition, but we'll

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1 just mark it for this one too.

2 Q. See your signature on this document?

3 A. Oh, yes.

4 Q. Okay. What's the date of that document at the

5 top?

6 A. February '94.

7 Q. Actually, it says '86, doesn't it?

8 A. I can't tell.

9 Yes, I guess it does say '86.

10 Q. Having seen this document, do you want to

11 change your testimony as to whether or not you formally

12 leased that premise to Walter Breen?

13 A. I can only think that it's something that

14 somebody stuck in front of me and said, sign this, and I

15 saw Elisabeth's name was already on it and signed it. I

16 was not aware of what it was.

17 Q. Prior to 1986 did you know that Walter Breen

18 had had sex with minor boys?

19 A. Yes. I have said that on several occasions

20 now.

21 Q. And you rented that place to him anyways;

22 right?

23 A. Well, he needed a place to live.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. What was I supposed to do, throw him out in the

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY, 12/14/98

1 street?

2 Q. I'll withhold my comments.

3 A. Well, I --

4 Q. Did you undertake any activity to ensure that

5 Walter Breen would not molest young boys at this property

6 that you rented to him?

7 A. As I say, at the time [Johnny Doe 1] was there. I told

8 him [Johnny Doe 1] was off limits, and I told him [Johnny Doe 4] was off

9 limits.

10 Q. Okay. But the other ones weren't off limits?

11 A. I never knew there were any others there.

12 Q. Did you ever tell him it would be off limits to

13 molest young boys on your property?

14 A. In those words, no.

15 Q. Did you ever tell him that he was not to have

16 young boys on your property?

17 A. I did not tell him that in those words, no.

18 Q. Did you know that he had young boys on your

19 property?

20 A. I did not.

21 Q. You knew that he had [Johnny Doe 1] there?

22 A. Yes. Well, that was different. [Johnny Doe 1] was

23 there because of both of us.

24 Q. You knew he had [Victim X] there; right?

25 A. No; [Victim X] never came to that place --

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY, 12/14/98

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. -- to the best of my knowledge and belief.

3 Q. You knew he had Ken Smith there, didn't you?

4 A. I don't know who Ken Smith is or who he was. I

5 wouldn't know Ken Smith from -- well, I would know

6 President Reagan because I saw him on T.V., so I can't say

7 I wouldn't know him from President Reagan.

8 Q. Do you recall telling the police you met Ken

9 Smith when Walter brought him around?

10 A. Yes, I do. I mean, sometime after he had been

11 living in the gold fishbowl for quite awhile.

12 Q. You knew that he had Ken Smith over there;

13 right?

14 A. Well, he came in one day with Ken Smith, so I

15 assumed it.

16 Q. So you assumed at some point after Walter moved

17 into the gold fishbowl and you rented it to Walter that

18 Walter had Ken Smith over there; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you ever tell Walter, You can't molest Ken

21 Smith over there?

22 A. I didn't know him from Adam or Fox.

23 Q. But you met him and knew Walter had him over

24 there and --

25 A. Oh, yes.

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY, 12/14/98

1 Q. Did you ever tell Walter, Ken Smith is off

2 limits?

3 A. It never occurred to me. I think what I

4 probably thought was that was up to Ken Smith to tell him

5 if he didn't want to.

6 Q. So at that point you believed it was up to Ken

7 Smith to tell him if he didn't want to have sex with

8 Walter?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. DOLAN: Can we take a couple-second break?

11 We're getting pretty close to our hour, but I want to take

12 a two-minute break. Just two minutes.

13 MR. WALKER: Okay. Well, I mean, we have about

14 two minutes left in the deposition.

15 MR. DOLAN: Actually, my stopwatch shows that I

16 have about seven minutes left, and I hope you'll give me

17 two minutes' credit. And I'm giving you time off with my

18 client's deposition. I mean, I wouldn't jam you on two

19 minutes here. I'm trying to be polite.

20 (Whereupon, the deposition adjourned at 12:24

21 p.m.)

22

23

24

________________________

25 MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY

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DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY, 12/14/98

1 I, the undersigned, hereby certify that the

2 witness in the foregoing deposition was, by me, duly sworn

3 to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

4 truth in the within-entitled cause.

5

6 That said deposition was taken in shorthand by

7 me, a Certified Shorthand Reporter and a disinterested

8 person, at the time and place therein stated, and that the

9 testimony of said witness was thereafter reduced to

10 typewriting, by computer, under my direction and

11 supervision.

12

13 I further certify that I am not of counsel or

14 attorney for either or any of the parties of the said

15 deposition, nor in any way interested in the event of this

16 cause, and that I am not related to any of the parties

17 thereto.

18

19 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand,

20 this 29th day of December 1998.

21

22

23

24 ________________________

Janine P. Branco

25 CSR #10372

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